The "Solaris" Project

[SiriusCG]

so that the game doesn't need a dedicated server to see all others game participants

Not a good idea. You will have MANY issues in creating a distributed system that can synchronize data between peers. Trust me, I used to do system admin for a living and it's hard enough with a dedicated server/client structure. Just my 0.02...

[Strong99]

@rogerborg
If you have a good description for you're team you don't need 10 team members and several years, if i had a team of 2 modellers and 1 extra programmer i was already finished, but holding a team is dificult.

@iZOTOPE
Yeh i think you always need a dedicated / host server for admin reasons and global netwerk, you need a way to make backups when something is wrong and resend it to clients.

I mean a sort of inspector host.

If everyone has the same data, no encryption would be needed if someone changes it, he still get the non-hacked info from your peer clients right?

[cederron]

But you say if the data is hacked while playing, other players will have a copy and it will be "dehacked".
Yes fine, but what if the data is hacked offline, since the player has his own data in his computer it can be hacked (if you decrypt it then the hacker also can), and no one will notice, because he's offline.
Also, how will you notice if a given action is a hack or a game event.
For example if a player wins 10 gold coins, how will you know if it's legal or a hack ? who 'reviews' this, another peer ?

[Saturn]

Who cares about it at this stage? There is not anything yet, to base any discussion on! Save for a vague proposal. Server side security is the only viable way, I guess one can establish this much as a fact. That's what all recent commercial projects do anyway. But it is moot to discuss this, as long as the project is in vaporware state.

And, iZOTOPE, no, I'm not hoping for the best. What reason should I have to? Your word? Not enough. You fail to present even the slightest clue that you know what you're talking about. I believe you don't and if this post disheartens you, well, at least be thankful for the lost leisure time, I saved for you to do something sensible instead.

Start with something simple that you and your team have a chance to accomplish.

[cederron]

Who cares about it at this stage? There is not anything yet, to base any discussion on! Save for a vague proposal. Server side security is the only viable way, I guess one can establish this much as a fact. That's what all recent commercial projects do anyway. But it is moot to discuss this, as long as the project is in vaporware state.

I was just trying to make him think about what he said and how dificult/inviable it is, instead of say him "you can't do this moroon, do a tetris"

[rogerborg]

@rogerborg
If you have a good description for you're team you don't need 10 team members and several years

Mmm. And how many games have you taken to completion, to lead you to that belief?

if i had a team of 2 modellers and 1 extra programmer i was already finished

And if I had some bacon, I could have bacon and eggs, if I had any eggs.

The great thing about me being cynical is that the only real retort is for you to complete your game. Good luck!

[Andreas]

Who cares about it at this stage? There is not anything yet, to base any discussion on! Save for a vague proposal.

[...]

And, iZOTOPE, no, I'm not hoping for the best. What reason should I have to? Your word? Not enough. You fail to present even the slightest clue that you know what you're talking about.

True, but i think its fun to discuss different ideas even if they are never realized...

And hey, there are so many "I and my team will make the next gen MMPORG but we are currently in design state and such have nothing but a forum post" posts that you can't ignore them all, can't you?

[BlindSide]

Yes it is not very realistic to have ONLY peer to peer. This will cause NAT issues. The ideal solution is to have a low bandwidth server that can introduce the clients so that the NATs open the ports to each other when they connect to this server (But some routers, like my one, have issues even using this kind of method, so I don't know how peer to peer is possible, p2p programs work though, on a side note).

An interesting proposition is a dynamic semi peer to peer system where the server simply sends instructions to the players on what info to send to what players, making the bandwidth consumption of the actual server very low. (And allowing lots of players to run on a cheap server.)

[rogerborg]

And how does the "server" know what the "world state" is on "peers" A and B respectively, in order to make a meaningful decision about what needs sent to whom and when? You can have 10,000 people casting Bigsby's Frantabulous Manipulator on each other, but if they're all in their own inconsistent world state, slaying each others' ghosts, then they're not really playing together in any meaningful way.

Trust is the major issue; I don't see anyone rushing to answer the question of how you trust a peer to play fair. Whack. I did 10,000 damage to that knob goblin, and he dropped 100,000,000 tin tokens. Yes he did. Yes he did, because I say so. You don't believe me? WHACK. I just did 100,000,000,000 damage to you. Yes I did. Plus, now I have copies of all your stuff. Yes I do.

This is about the time where the original poster comes back to say "Yebbut, we have really clever code that won't allow that because mumble antichronatons jumble reverse the polarity of the neutron flow rhubarb Jeffries' tube gumbo dark matter on a stick. You wouldn't understand."

[monkeycracks]

This is about the time where the original poster comes back to say "Yebbut, we have really clever code that won't allow that because mumble antichronatons jumble reverse the polarity of the neutron flow rhubarb Jeffries' tube gumbo dark matter on a stick. You wouldn't understand."

ROFL

But anyways...
...you guys are being really harsh on him.

A friendly suggestions like, "Hey, it'd be much easier and more efficient if you used a dedicated server with client-server instead of p2p." works much better than several pages of flaming and discussing the same thing over and over.

[iZOTOPE]

well, i've chosen Irrlicht 3d engine because it has a great community, but, this discussion changes my mind.
look, i've been in WoW (and those who don't know what WoW is, its the Blizzard supreme MMORPG) emulation since the beginning, and believe me i can understand how servers/cilents work.

I could choose RealmCrafter game engine instead of Irrlicht, and the progress of the game and server would be far ahead of what i'm having here.every single day i'm thinking why i didn't choose that. now if you are so smart people and know every single bit of games and mmorpgs, you could tell why i've changed my mind.


now, that peer-to-peer was just a thought, because no one did it in a game before.
and the project isn't in a vapor.... it is in constant developing, we're actually working on a demo, new ideas on terrain and seamless worlds even you didn't think about it, look i don't want to argue, but why you guys always have to say bad things over a good idea?
we just use/modify irrlicht's core to fulfill our needs.

Hey Izotope, its interesting how both of our teams came up with the same idea Smile Originally we wanted to make a purely p2p game, but it seems we will need atleast 1 computer in the network to start the game. All peers them start to connect the network via this computer. This also makes it a bit easier to administrate and store information.

It would be interesting to see how our final products turn out ^_^

the idea is great though, and nothing will stop me to do it.
now about that computer, well since we are making a mmorpg game, we MUST have game masters no ? well let us say that computer is one of the GM's
that is it for now, so stop argue about this project.
i know what mmorpg games involve, so it takes time to do one right.
demo will be avaible soon, just to make an ideea on what will come from this project.

cheers.

[Andreas]

now, that peer-to-peer was just a thought, because no one did it in a game before.

Did you ever stop to think why no one did it before? Maybe those coders from Blizzard that program games for a living are simply too stupid...

and the project isn't in a vapor.... it is in constant developing, we're actually working on a demo, new ideas on terrain and seamless worlds even you didn't think about it, look i don't want to argue, but why you guys always have to say bad things over a good idea?

Thats just because you are not the first to announce the next MMORPG... and you won't be the last. So don't take this discussion too serious, and if you really program something even close to an MMORPG, i'm the first to apologize!

[iZOTOPE]

Did you ever stop to think why no one did it before? Maybe those coders from Blizzard that program games for a living are simply too stupid...

because they earn money from guyz like you who like to pay to play a god damn game !!
that is why
and there are much more mmo's that do the same thing
you pay for dvd once, and you pay to play the game you brought, and this is poop.


i personally don't want that, that is why i was in WoW emulation from the first time.
i want that everyone to play for free, to form a nice community around a game like this, not to charge the poor guyz for buying it and then another charge for playing it, all this while i'm standing in my "office" and count the millions that i've made and sue everybody who tries to emulate my software.and besides just count the men who died playing that god forsaken game !!!

sorry about that, but it came from the heart.
well, probably i'm stupid because i think this way, but the idea is that i want this game to be played without to pay !!

obvious you didn't thought about this.

[Saturn]

Yep, it would me much fairer to just hire a bunch of programmers and support staff, pay them to program and maintain a huge MMORPG world and give it away for free....

Of course they want to earn money and of course they implement a business model, that lets them earn money. And, ..drumroll.., they actually *have* a game one can play.

I don't care a bit about MMORPGs as a player, so I am indifferent in that regard. Though MMORPGs show the dark side of computer gaming more than other games. Yours wouldn't be an exception. Addiction can be a problem even with free games.

[iZOTOPE]

all games are a threat to addiction, i've seen enough addicts, counter-strike, WoW (-- the most ones, they've lost whole years on faculty, and almost their life), Warcraft 3 DOTA, and much much more.
but hey, how about a counter that counts how much hours you playin one day, and shut down the game when counter counted 5 hours of continous playing that specific day ?
and don't argue with that cuz it is possible !!

well, you only need to think how to combat game addiction,and come out with new ideas, not to say "bah.. this p2p isn't possible, this and that can't be done..etc", you must have faith in what you are doing

so long..