ogre and irrlicht thingy!!

omaremad · Post by **omaremad** » Thu Jul 26, 2007 11:06 pm

All these topics should be banned seriously...

Each person can just choose their engine no need to battle for the best. Most generic implentations arent good for games anyway so even real devs recode significant chunks of premade engines ( a la ubisoft and splintercell).

I chose irrlicht because i like adding the effects/customisations myself overlayed on to an easy to understand simple framework; I dont want to spend my time writing long functions that are boring (see matrix operators and quat to matrix conversions) but i dont mind using time to learn about rendering techniques, things you mentioned are defintely not impossible in irrlicht i made a infite lights shader, it was a question of constructing shader strings on the fly rather than repairing some huge flaw in irrlicht.
Additive shaddows? just change the modulation flag for the stencil polygon, its just one keyword.

As for art, yes irrlicht severly suffers in its pipeline. but coders can take the time to include some generic solution(cal3d patches say hi) or write their own.

Irrlicht's functionality is well balanced across its renderers (dx,ogl,and sw)

Therefore you should never expect from it anything above sw render capabilities.

Just read my sig... irrlicht is competeing for a diffrent group of users.

Saturn · Post by **Saturn** » Thu Jul 26, 2007 11:22 pm

omaremad wrote: Additive shaddows? just change the modulation flag for the stencil polygon, its just one keyword.

Beg pardon? This is not this easy. Additive shadows require multiple passes. First render scene with ambient only, then per light a diffuse pass that adds diffuse lighting for every part of the scene not in shadow relative to this light.
Doing this in Irrlicht takes more than just toggling a flag.

omaremad · Post by **omaremad** » Thu Jul 26, 2007 11:33 pm

When i read his scentence about additive stencil shadows and thought that the stencil results is added rather than multiplied with the prexisting framebuffer values.

then per light a diffuse pass that adds diffuse lighting for every part of the scene not in shadow relative to this light

<- that sounds like that can be achieved using AO data in one single pass. We can even store this data without modding irrlicht, using 2 texcoord vertex type and any lightmap loading frmt.

Anyway the method you describe seems afully complex for shadows,i would just simply multiply(mul factor is derieved from any shadow technique you want) to darken things and hence create shadows, another multiply with a AO map can make sure dark corners never get lit, even if they are not occluded by a dynamic shadow but are illuminated by the local illumination model.

omaremad · Post by **omaremad** » Thu Jul 26, 2007 11:53 pm

Ok i looked at the ogre screenshot stuff and it seems additve shadows for stencil are about multiple degree of shadow trasnparency (which is a problem for normal stencil) i wasnt sure what the term additve shadows meant bc shadows dont make things brighter. Id rather stick to ogres shadow maps, stencil already eats up allot of transform and hidden fillrate, multipass stencil on large scenes and bad gpus wouldnt be too good.

agi_shi · Post by **agi_shi** » Fri Jul 27, 2007 12:54 am

omaremad wrote:Ok i looked at the ogre screenshot stuff and it seems additve shadows for stencil are about multiple degree of shadow trasnparency (which is a problem for normal stencil) i wasnt sure what the term additve shadows meant bc shadows dont make things brighter. Id rather stick to ogres shadow maps, stencil already eats up allot of transform and hidden fillrate, multipass stencil on large scenes and bad gpus wouldnt be too good.

Ogre's shadow maps can also be additive.

Problem: they can't self-shadow. Ogre's stencils can completely self-shadow correctly 85% of the time.

Shadows aren't darkenings. They're places that light doesn't reach. Additive shadows simulate this. Add in per-pixel lighting and you get practically real-world results (you'd need some more "soft-ness" to the whole thing).

Also: Ogre is good for commercial stuff. Just check out their projects page.

I dont want to spend my time writing long functions that are boring (see matrix operators and quat to matrix conversions)

WHAT?

Ogre::Matrix4::extractQuaternion()
Ogre::Matrix4::getTrans()

Ogre::Quaternion::FromRotationMatrix()
Ogre::Quaternion::ToRotationMatrix()

Ogre::Matrix4::extract3x3Matrix()

etc. etc.

So you prefer using Euler angles over quaternions? That's just genius.

omaremad · Post by **omaremad** » Fri Jul 27, 2007 1:22 am

WHAT?

Ogre::Matrix4::extractQuaternion()
Ogre::Matrix4::getTrans()

Ogre::Quaternion::FromRotationMatrix()
Ogre::Quaternion::ToRotationMatrix()

Ogre::Matrix4::extract3x3Matrix()

etc. etc.

So you prefer using Euler angles over quaternions? That's just genius.

LOL...

prehaps i should have elaborated but what i meant is i chose irrlicht over writting a complete engine from scratch bc of that reason... i dont really see how what i said triggers a euler vs quat fight =p.

Shadows are darkenings,unless your force a fixed shadow colour.

omaremad · Post by **omaremad** » Fri Jul 27, 2007 1:26 am

Further more no engine is 100% good for commercial stuff, you will need to modify (seen my example?). Id rather modify a simple base to my needs.

agi_shi · Post by **agi_shi** » Fri Jul 27, 2007 2:07 am

omaremad wrote:
WHAT?

Ogre::Matrix4::extractQuaternion()
Ogre::Matrix4::getTrans()

Ogre::Quaternion::FromRotationMatrix()
Ogre::Quaternion::ToRotationMatrix()

Ogre::Matrix4::extract3x3Matrix()

etc. etc.

So you prefer using Euler angles over quaternions? That's just genius.
LOL...

prehaps i should have elaborated but what i meant is i chose irrlicht over writting a complete engine from scratch bc of that reason... i dont really see how what i said triggers a euler vs quat fight =p.

Shadows are darkenings,unless your force a fixed shadow colour.

Not in the real world. Ogre's additive shadows aim for real-world results (well, not realism, but as in how stuff would behave in the real-world).

Also, check out Ogre's projects page, like I said. Most projects didn't modify anything, other than use plugins which don't come with Ogre by default (and using them is as easy as Root::loadPlugin() - no modding of sources).

hybrid · Post by **hybrid** » Fri Jul 27, 2007 8:09 am

Irrlicht's main extension handle is via custom scene nodes which can hold almost everything. Adn yo don't have to touch Irrlicht core code to add custom scene nodes.

beshrkayali · Post by **beshrkayali** » Fri Jul 27, 2007 10:13 am

now i know why people have so many posts

phyxx · Post by **phyxx** » Sun Dec 07, 2008 8:14 am

http://www.squidoo.com/3D-engine-tutorials is a useful collection of sample apps in Ogre and Irrlicht, and it allows you to see both engines side by side.

geckoman · Post by **geckoman** » Sun Dec 07, 2008 9:16 am

OGRE MAY be better then Irrlicht in SOME categories, but thats not all what counts.
My personal experience:

As I want to create a game I searched the internet for about 2 weeks and tried almost every engine that I found (even commercial).
At last I had to decide between Irrlicht and OGRE.
Why I choose Irrlicht?
People at OGRE Forum tend to say: buy that OGRE Book. People at Amazon say: That OGRE Book is crap.
Tried to get OGRE compiling: works, but it's very complicated and you have to read this and that, download this and that and then it compiles but you don't know yet which of the ~1000000 files (aprox

) in the bin dir you really need to run the program etc. pp. (fill in more here)
People at Irrlicht Forum seem as they LIKE to help, they discuss your problems or questions.
Tried to get Irrlicht compiling. Took me about a minute. End of story

And despite NOT reading any API or other docs, I managed to change some things successfully.

So THAT is more important to me than a hundred thousand features, I can't use. I'm a programmer, if I need more, I have to understand Irrlicht and extend it.

And btw. the commercial games that used OGRE don't really look good with ONE exception (That vampyre thingy)

Virion · Post by **Virion** » Sun Dec 07, 2008 9:35 am

geckoman wrote: People at OGRE Forum tend to say: buy that OGRE Book. People at Amazon say: That OGRE Book is crap.

i bought the book long before when i wasn't yet an irrlicht user. really is crap.

dlangdev · Post by **dlangdev** » Tue Dec 16, 2008 10:31 pm

Well, I don't have an opinion about Ogre3D...yet. Soon, I'll be able to make a good one after recieving the invite from a guy who enjoys writing games using Ogre code.

Halan · Post by **Halan** » Wed Dec 17, 2008 9:49 pm

i actually read taht book too and have it but it just made me stay with irrlicht too.

But omaremad i think for you Horde3D would be nicer