Project Consumed announcement and recruitment post!

fmx · Post by **fmx** » Thu Sep 20, 2007 7:20 pm

EndGameStudio:
NO-ONE here is trying to put you down (not even rogerborg, though his frustration was showing slightly...).

We'd *love* to see you succeed, but I guess the problem we're all having is how you've worded your game-concept in your first post, and what you hope to achieve compared with the resources you have at hand (including the possible funding)

In a nutshell, CuteAlien was talking about "Feasibility studies";
google it, see what its all about, re-read your first post multiple times, then hopefully you might see what we're talking about.

Whatever you decide to do (however you choose to do it), its your own decision at the end of the day, not mine, not anyone elses.

Just go ahead and do what you will.

I wish you all the best.
Good luck!

vermeer · Post by **vermeer** » Thu Sep 20, 2007 7:21 pm

"would be quite tricky if you don't have anyone with PS3 experience!"

(ahem... would be tricky, quite a lot, anyway... am told)

EndGameStudio · Post by **EndGameStudio** » Thu Sep 20, 2007 7:37 pm

Despite the nay-saying, which I get a lot of. I am going to go ahead with this project. The team believes in this and I can't abandon them now.

Why, in less than a month, I have got talents from all walks of life and generated interest with people who work for Bantam, NBC, DiggPhilly, Movie Industry folks and others actually gives me hope for this project. At first it was a simple idea, not much to it, then as people came aboard and told me what could and could not be done, we have this. While Full Mesh deformation is a hard task it is not impossible.

I understand you are trying to"save" me from myself, and I appreciate it.

CuteAlien · Post by **CuteAlien** » Thu Sep 20, 2007 7:51 pm

EndGameStudio wrote:Despite the nay-saying, which I get a lot of. I am going to go ahead with this project. The team believes in this and I can't abandon them now.

So you rather wait until they have spend a year or two before you abandon them? I am *not* joking - exactly this stuff does happen.

EndGameStudio wrote: Why, in less than a month, I have got talents from all walks of life and generated interest with people who work for Bantam, NBC, DiggPhilly, Movie Industry folks and others actually gives me hope for this project. At first it was a simple idea, not much to it, then as people came aboard and told me what could and could not be done, we have this. While Full Mesh deformation is a hard task it is not impossible.

Sure, there is nearly nothing impossible in programming. That's beside the point. But you might realize that every single person on this planet does actually experience every single day of his life more interactivity than is available in current computer games. So if you think about this a little you might realize that there might be *some* reason why other games still do not have it. And I promise that the reason is not that you are the first person to think of this.

EndGameStudio wrote: I understand you are trying to"save" me from myself, and I appreciate it.

I don't. I actually would like you to stop wasting the lifetime of other people who trust you. Because they shouldn't as long as you have obviously no idea what you are trying to accomplish and still tell them that this will work.

I don't say there is no chance that you will succeed. There is even a chance that someone who only has build card-towers so far will be able to create the next taj mahal. It just happens rather seldom.

EndGameStudio · Post by **EndGameStudio** » Thu Sep 20, 2007 8:01 pm

I don't. I actually would like you to stop wasting the lifetime of other people who trust you. Because they shouldn't as long as you have obviously no idea what you are trying to accomplish and still tell them that this will work.

Actually as I said a post ago this project was much simpler. My team are the ones who told ME it could be done. They are shaping the technology to fit my storyline and skills. They are the ones telling themselves it can be done.

Amazing how that works eh? Not taking full control and letting everyone on the team have their say and input. The programmers are free to take and leave whatever they feel is far to difficult however I have not come across that. They are telling me, that this can be done and that they can do it.

I keep telling them only to take on as much as they feel they can.

Assumptions are foolhardy my friend.

shogun · Post by **shogun** » Thu Sep 20, 2007 8:12 pm

Trust is good, control is better. You should review the code of your programmers, otherwise you will soon be another case for thedailywtf.com ...

EndGameStudio · Post by **EndGameStudio** » Thu Sep 20, 2007 8:20 pm

Good Point Shogun, However I have set up a project site for the programmers. They update with what they are working on and then upload a copy of what they have done to the site. So not only I, but the other programmers can view the work they have done and critique or improve on it.

CuteAlien · Post by **CuteAlien** » Thu Sep 20, 2007 8:26 pm

Unfortunately programmers have a tendency to overestimate what they will be able to do. And not just beginner programmers. Estimations are not just hard but for stuff which is not previously done they are basically impossible.

But I told you a way to get at least some idea what is feasible and what is not. Do that. Do that now before you continue working blindly full ahead. What do you have to lose? You will get a *much better* idea what can be done by spending 1-2 evenings. Which does not seem like a problem as you plan for such a big project.

And if you then see that the stuff which you plan to do in, lets say 1-2 years with a handful people seems to take every other company dozens of programmers (and even more artists), way more time and that beside the fact that they have people who often work for years in the industry, then you might consider if your design will really work. Or if just *maybe* a few serious changes are necessary.

And if just by reading the few bits of information in your first post a few of the more experienced programmers here already start to write warnings, this *might* be a sign that what you are planning is way off.

hybrid · Post by **hybrid** » Thu Sep 20, 2007 9:44 pm

Hmm, I don't think that anyone will make it on these forums here when talking about a project more than two weeks from delivery

I don't think that it really helps to destroy peoples plans. Do you guys really think that he will have fun to work on something you propose? So after all you will either prevent him from doing anything, or he will fail in your opinion. Then it does not really make sense to argue about anything here. You'd only destroy the (even minimal would be better than nothing) chance to get something to work.
And honestly, CuteAlien, if you'd have posted in here at the beginning of your project the proposal would have been even worse. Kind of "we will make a commercial game with 50+ tracks, make our own physics system for a high-quality sci-fi racing game bla bla". Do you really think that you'd have been better off in here?
I'd say that with a good project management and enough enthusiasm it's possible. Why start with another small project if you can go for a simple playable demo with limited scenery, effects, and gameplay.
People ask often why Irrlicht features not too many games, yet. Seems it's the pessimistic ambience among the community

omaremad · Post by **omaremad** » Thu Sep 20, 2007 9:51 pm

Study this thread (a prophecy i think to this thread):
http://irrlicht.sourceforge.net/phpBB2/ ... hp?t=22378

Also show your programmers that criteria list i made, the programmers that joined the team i worked with didn't meet it (exception of blindside which worked with me after persuasion directly from me). Be careful only very rarely would programmers with any decent level of experience/knowledge would volunteer to these things (im talking about premature projects, most open source stuff doesn't get help till its past proto stage).

Ask your programmers for small proof of concept programs of each game feature, analyse test , improve analyse test and improve... and ask yourself is this fun or is this just "next gen".

Remember we are not evil oppressors, we speak from past experiences. Btw also make sure each person makes a prototype (artists, musicians too) Because being good at movie making has nothing to do with gamedev (except in specialized fields like lighting setups and camera direction) but these people are not needed at this stage.

lostclimategames · Post by **lostclimategames** » Thu Sep 20, 2007 9:57 pm

the pessemistic mood is everywhere in indie game dev. I've had a few projects that I couldnt do alone (even attempted on some of them) and recruitment went horrible, the only people that went for it were noobs that knew nothing about game dev, not workable. I found the only way I am able to do it is use my skill, sell them to others, then take that money and invest that into hiring people for small additions. At least he has nice base of talented workers behind him, so he has a huge boost over most of us.

CuteAlien · Post by **CuteAlien** » Thu Sep 20, 2007 11:03 pm

@hybrid: I have no problem if someone just goes ahead and does something and I even think that I do in most cases support people who are doing that. I started myself with a lot of half-finished projects ;-) But on the other hand sometimes people spend years of their lifetime on a projects which fail because they don't make a reality check first. And that is just bad.

I don't say they should not make a game. But that they should first make a concept which has a chance to finish. And while you might not have seen that in my racer, we did actually think hard about what is possible before we started (we still had to drop some features, worked partly for the trashbin, took longer than planned, etc). You actually mentioned two things about which I was also afraid first. But we did physic&editor first and therefore knew very early that it would work.

And I don't see that here. Not with the description of the first post. Sorry if I'm too negative - maybe I am :-) Still I want to see them succeed as much as you do, but unlike you I think they are on the wrong track so far. And the hardest work will just not help to realize your dreams if you go in the wrong direction. Have you ever been in a project that just got dropped after a whole team spend a year on it? I was...

Edit: Hm, after reading my former posts once more - yeah sorry, they really are too negative. I suppose with a slightly more realistic design you might succeed ;-)

EndGameStudio · Post by **EndGameStudio** » Thu Sep 20, 2007 11:46 pm

Ok, so lets get to the nitty gritty of it. I think I will do chopping of features, some fine tunning. However that is not to say i'm abandoning my previous goals. Just lowering them a bit in the mean time. As of now we are working on a concept demo and as such, I have been requested by my programmers to find a modeler or twelve, and some concept artists. While I have been actively looking, figure I would give this forum a chance to toss in their collective skills.

Remember we are not evil oppressors, we speak from past experiences. Btw also make sure each person makes a prototype (artists, musicians too) Because being good at movie making has nothing to do with gamedev (except in specialized fields like lighting setups and camera direction) but these people are not needed at this stage.

Don't worry, I don't think your evil oppressors. With the type of project site I have set up, everyone uploads a initial version of there specific project, I review it and then tell them how to improve or ask one of the more experienced people to critique it. Im not a slave master, this is a group project and pretty much everyone get their input.

Halifax · Post by **Halifax** » Fri Sep 21, 2007 1:00 am

EndGameStudio: Yes I believe you have a good point, and this does seem like a great game. Keep up the good work. Although yes I would ask for proof of concept from your team possibly if you already haven't.

Plus it is always best to learn by mistakes, then it is to never attempt. Something never attempted is something lost.

rogerborg · Post by **rogerborg** » Fri Sep 21, 2007 11:30 am

hybrid wrote: People ask often why Irrlicht features not too many games, yet. Seems it's the pessimistic ambience among the community

I don't accept that an accurate post mortem on these plethora of failed projects would conclude "Cause of death: cynicism from random commentors on a bulletin board."

That's no more reasonable an attribution of responsibility than blaming a suicide case on a stranger on the bus who failed to smile at them.

Good luck, Mr Quinn. I do have one constructive suggestion to make: keep (if not necessarily publish) a development diary. We all make mistakes; what's important is that we learn from them, and hindsight tends to be rose tinted unless you document your mistakes as you go.