Quake2 vs Irrlicht

[guest_ver]

anyway, quake 2 is comercial..the source code is given, but not for comercial projects...

[AssiDragon]

Yeah Tynn, you have a point, but irrlicht has *tons* of priority issues, and with new releases more will arise (bugs); and that pretty much stated Irrlicht is for .x anyway. So I think I have my grounds to be cynic towards that.

I remember a commercial game being done with the Quake2MAX engine, it was sold in russia (it was called Landslide or sg). They might have made an agreement with IDSoftware though, I dunno.

But if I was to release a commercial game I wouldn't do it with Quake2 now

[vermeer]

" and I never really saw trembling vertices..."

Well, I have seen that problem in every engine supporting the format...maybe then ID had some kind of tweak for that at render time.... I coder told me is for md2 not supporting floats for vertices positions, resulting on it then does not know well where to locate vertices. The accurate prblems though, are harder to notice with quake2 old models, as they were REALLy low pol. As well as deformation...hmmm...I modelled 2k models and converted to md2, and it does not traslate accurately. And done with several converters. I'm far from a noob in art making, so I know conversions were made ok. But is 2 problems: bad deformation, and trembling vertices.
maybe ID created something to tweak the trembling...? perhaps...I don't see my self getting a reply on how they did it.

And once again...md2 do not even have bones... Now I think bones can't be accessed by code...by irllitch is a WIP, so in future it will be able...basing in md2 wont ever make it possible...It doe snot have bones.If u ask me why u need this.. for loads of things. But that is just another point.

I duno, maybe is not that crappiest format as u see it : Truevision engine load x with weights -it's its main format- and imho is quite a good engine... Gamestudio loads x files, have recently changed to using it as its main import and characters format...last time I checked they tam was in the proccess of adding weights support to the x file...Urgh3d imports perfectly x weighted files (and I helped him to make the tests) ... Blitz3d does not, but using Ultimate unwrap u can import an x file and export as b3d. ALL commercial packages export x! Max, XSI, Lightwave, Maya, all these with free plugins. I know what ur gonna say: they're comercial, yep, and indeed, most artist use Max. But I'd agree is better go for the free or cheap way : Character Fx 15$ , exports perfect x files. 3d canvas(34$), way worse, but some people use it, also exports x.

Loads of coders using c++ and x, at gamedev and flip code, use these x files for characters, and a very little number of them do so because they're fans of microsoft or anything... heck, is just ...tell me -please- of another format to support bones, weights, animation, 2 uv channels for lightmaps (v9 x files support more for multitexturing) , spline interpolation as well as linear (oh, md2 ONLY supports linear, while md3 has quadratic spline interpolation, much better) , vertex colors (create to create like "shaders" over the texture, used often for extra lighting in sceneries) , accurate smoothing normals info, and a large etc. heck, md2 even does not support 2 textures per md2 file... u need to create one animation with the weapon and other with the guy, to have two textures...


Darkbasic pro, it's main import format is x files with weights and all. And lots of cool projects are now in the proccess with it.

Quest 3d engine also imports x files with weights,etc. 3dRad import x files too...several othe ropen source engines whose name I don't remember now...

I mean, most of those make x their main format for character animation...do u think seriously ALL of them are wrong?? I don't need it as a proof , I'm an artist (are u artist or coder?) and I know it's the only format with such wide collection of supporting 3d packages (and also engines. take in consideration artist usually also looks for the most extended stuff;if I make a model for free , and coder decides to change a game after I made a model for him -usual- because now wants to do an strategy game instead of an FPS, besides I made my model for free, I will EAT it. But if I made in x format, I can give it to any other engine that imports this format. Of course, md2 is so compatible in engines importing it, but not so much in tools that output it...heck, it's basicly only 3500$ Max, with QTip, now gone coemrcial limited to 20 frames (though I have the free old version) exporter...and Quake Modeller...with the help of NST , npherno tool. QM has the limit of asigning only 256x256, 256 colors skins (other "gift" from the past), and only import UVs by ASC format, another format usually only well suported by Max. This means u gotta uvmap with npherno, once animated.So forced u to animate untextured model, quite harder than animate it textured. I have worked at a games company, and it would have been crazy with time pressure and all to animate untextured models.)


Dunno...every 9 of ten artists I meet prefer weights and bones (usually with x files) .While is more common that coders do not like it, though usually they haven't deal with certain stuff to talk about it...


And again, ur judging a work in progress engine. Usually u should consider it a beta. Why then ask it to have same perfection level than Quake 2 when that was a comercial product, made by a team, which paid loads to them in money, and that surely as any engine was produced in long time before release?

There's some ppl here with the comercial thing in mind. None wanna do an HL2 or Doom3 (lol) , but I've seen some guys making pretty bucks selling a remake of a 2d game in 3d, or a fishing game (this one made loads of money, with Gamestudio, and the game was waay simple, done by an artist, and a coder)

So yep, for u maybe not, fo rmany it's interesting that the engine is as open as to allow comercial products.

Being cynic about a format, using your own word, is ok...but i hope u used bothe deeply as I did, as an artist, I mean, to at least what exact pains I'm referring to...


Anyway, you have decided already Ogre(so I don't understand ur need to say here Irlitch is worse (for which I don't find a convicing reason for it in all what I read at least, measuring pros and cons said by coders here and there...)). Go for it, then.

BTW, 15% does matter for an FPS. But..even for those...machines are powerful enough...and again, can be a matter of artist knowing to not charge so much load in polycount, etc... I am told by very good coders that quake2 source is way complex.Yeah, yeah, not for u that you've been years with quake2 engine...I know... But you see, not everybody has done so, and probably they're good c++ coders. So, it has sense to provide a tool that supports c++ and is way easier.

"Besides, I'm gonna use a fairly unkown modell format called REO/REC anyway. It was used for the game called Drakan (old one"

Once again, prblem here. Now what tools support that. Most modders use max (I know, a "copy" of it) , and in amateur field, it's Character Fx, Blender, Wings3d, Ultimate Unwrap (I have and use all these) , some others wit Milkshape.

Ok, like u knowing quake2 code, and also, finding ur own path for that specidfic game format, cool for u. But think about the ppl.

heck, even last, newest doom3 format would be match better in terms of compatibility (and for what i read, much more powerful than that strange format) , MD5. At least, that one can be exported by der_ton plugin, a Blender exporter for MD5. (there's also an md5 exporter for Max, made also by him)

Even that one, at last an Id format supporting bones (well, mds was actually the first one, I mean with bones AND weights, bones without em hasn't got much sense) is not really better than x, as in fact, only those two tools to export md5...

[Domarius]

AssiDragon, if you can manage C on your own, that's fine. But that's a very specific case. Teams of programmers will preffer OOP because they can work together more easily using it.

And I also support Niko's choice to focuse on .X support for now - it's easily the most 'bang for your buck' in terms of what Irrlicht will get out of it for what Niko puts into it.

[AssiDragon]

vermeer, I agree with the rest of your post. I'm not a modeller myself, must admit - just doing modells on a low level (well, testing purposes mostly). I was just surprised, becasue I never saw trembling vertices in Quake2 and the engine has no "hack" to correct that problem. Gotta be the lowpoly modells then.

Anyway, you have decided already Ogre(so I don't understand ur need to say here Irlitch is worse (for which I don't find a convicing reason for it in all what I read at least, measuring pros and cons said by coders here and there...)). Go for it, then.

Thanks just finishing a few exams here *shakes hand at uni* and will try =)

There are enough convincing reasons, but I wont start them because this thread already only serves the purpose of messing, imho... :/

BTW, 15% does matter for an FPS. But..even for those...machines are powerful enough...and again, can be a matter of artist knowing to not charge so much load in polycount, etc... I am told by very good coders that quake2 source is way complex.Yeah, yeah, not for u that you've been years with quake2 engine...I know... But you see, not everybody has done so, and probably they're good c++ coders. So, it has sense to provide a tool that supports c++ and is way easier.

I downloaded the Quake2 engine this year January. My Quake2 is now modified to a huge extent, already - rather like a new game now. So I wouldn't consider it hard.
As for c++ - well, guess I won't convince anyone and noone can convince me lol ^_^

"Besides, I'm gonna use a fairly unkown modell format called REO/REC anyway. It was used for the game called Drakan (old one"

Once again, prblem here. Now what tools support that. Most modders use max (I know, a "copy" of it) , and in amateur field, it's Character Fx, Blender, Wings3d, Ultimate Unwrap (I have and use all these) , some others wit Milkshape.

I'm making a fangame based on Drakan. So, the possible modellers who will make the modelling will know what to do, and how to do. And I find the format pretty cool myself, anyway ^_^
BTW - 3DSMAX, Milkshape and SoftImage has REO export/import plugins.

Ok, like u knowing quake2 code, and also, finding ur own path for that specidfic game format, cool for u. But think about the ppl.

Pretty much don't understand this one

heck, even last, newest doom3 format would be match better in terms of compatibility (and for what i read, much more powerful than that strange format) , MD5. At least, that one can be exported by der_ton plugin, a Blender exporter for MD5. (there's also an md5 exporter for Max, made also by him)

I have quite a few good modellers who are experienced with REC/REO as I said. Why not go on with it then?


Domarius - I'm working totally alone only thing I need is someone working on the same code wiht me, having different ideas and screwing my work *brrrrr* not a teamplayer of that sort even if it's more effective sometimes, I know...

[guest_vermeer]

I see .Your needs are very specific for that Drakan game.

Actually for particular needs, there's always an ideal engine, I suppose..

Many ppl use one engine or another for each project depending on what requires that project, so, cool then.

[AssiDragon]

Yes, vermeer... I even have bits of codes ready here and there, but the ideas are very specific now.

And yes, the other point is true too. I had fun with Irrlicht for a long while (it's friendly first doubtless), but when I came to totally abandon the Quake2 stuff I realized some things, which sorta shifted me to ogre.

Wondered about CrystalSpace too, but it's like an MMPORG engine. so yes. It boils down to what you need, in fact.

(Now wondering, instead of this post I could have simply said "you're right". Eck.)