I know I'm going to be punished for this, but ...

[MKG]

It's a sad state of affairs. The number of times on this and other sites where I've read that no-one (i.e. no one who has merely an idea) has a chance of creating a "good" game without the necessary programming skills - and then the number of reportedly "kewl" games from those same carping developers which are, for the want of a better term, sheer unadulterated crap. I'm annoyed that, in my search for something that might actually be able to do what I want, I've wasted a lot of my download allotment looking for examples and ending up with such puerile rubbish. Badly drawn. Badly written. Badly conceived. But - Ooooh! what a nice implementation of that particular piece of code.

It's not just Irrlicht - the number of (for example, Wintermute) "adventure game" efforts which should be labelled with Mogadon values is high. There's no difference between a game with a good background idea but poor implementation and a beautifully rendered but horrifically boring game - they're both tedious, tawdry and fit only for the dustbin.

Yes, by all means continue to appeal for coding help, artwork help, sound help. But most people seem to have forgotten something - the concept. Appeal for a writer/plot developer/call it what you will . Oh, and while you're at it, appeal for someone like that who has the ability to think clearly rather than merely being a parallel of the code junkie "I got the ultimate MMORPG (yet again)" yell.

Get the ideas people in (and no, I'm not offering my services) and improve the offerings. Why are some games freeware and some commercial? I'd like to say that it's because some game developers have a higher purpose in life than making money. It's not, though. It's because the game-consuming public are sick and tired of the same old stuff being churned out. They buy new ideas, not beautifully efficient coding.

Irrlicht is good and will become better. The non-gaming Irrlicht community are doing some pretty wonderful things. Correct me, please, if I'm wrong - but why is the gaming community lagging behind?

<<Puts on steel helmet and runs for bunker>>

[xDan]

I want to punish you, I really do, but I'm not sure what you're on about.

I had to look up "Mogadon" too. It's a drug! Surreal games are great.

There's no difference between a game with a good background idea but poor implementation and a beautifully rendered but horrifically boring game - they're both tedious, tawdry and fit only for the dustbin.

Nononno, they are most definitely fit for an overhaul on the aspect that is failing.

I consider myself an "ideas person". But most of the ideas have been crushed out of me in the arduous journey of learning to code.

I hate MMORPGs. They're no more a game than Myspace etc.

[sio2]

I agree with the observation that some people are too caught up in perfecting their code than actually producing anything.

A couple of days ago I asked a guy-with-a-game-engine for some of his demos. He had none to show me. Oh, hang on, he had a floating-logo-type-thing that could probably have been done in a few lines without a game engine. I can't fault the person's enthusiasm -and wanting to code things correctly is not a bad thing - but I think he, like others, "can't see the wood for the trees" and are too busy trying to perfect something than actually going off and making something.

Thing is - chances are their "well written" code will break anyway as soon as they really start to test it.

<<Puts on steel helmet and joins MKG in bunker>>

[rogerborg]

It's a sad state of affairs. The number of times on this and other sites where I've read that no-one (i.e. no one who has merely an idea) has a chance of creating a "good" game without the necessary programming skills - and then the number of reportedly "kewl" games from those same carping developers which are, for the want of a better term, sheer unadulterated crap.

I agree that it's rather sad and futile when people just piss and moan about something without contributing anything concrete.

Get the ideas people in (and no, I'm not offering my services)

I concur that everyone should put their money where your mouth is.

the game-consuming public are sick and tired of the same old stuff being churned out. They buy new ideas, not beautifully efficient coding.

Top 10 PC games of 2007

1. World of Warcraft: Burning Crusade [Expansion]* – Vivendi (Blizzard) – 2.25 million
2. World of Warcraft – Vivendi (Blizzard) – 914K
3. The Sims 2 Seasons Expansion Pack – Electronic Arts – 433K
4. Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare* – Activision – 383K
5. Command & Conquer 3: Tiberium Wars* – Electronic Arts – 343K
6. Sim City 4 Deluxe – Electronic Arts – 284K
7. The Sims 2 – Electronic Arts – 281K
8. The Sims 2 Bon Voyage Expansion Pack – Electronic Arts – 271K
9. Age of Empires III – Microsoft – 259K
10. The Sims 2 Pets Expansion[/b] Pack – Electronic Arts – 236K

That's just on PC, of course. Consoles are even more skewed towards sequels and annual updates.

<<Puts on steel helmet and runs for bunker>>

I rarely take mine off.

[MKG]

OK rogerborg - you're right and I accept the wrist-slapping. I was moaning - probably something to do with the awful second-half display by England against Wales yesterday.

But the core of the argument remains true - same old stuff EVEN FROM INDIE DEVELOPERS who should be able to break new ground but are usually more code-oriented than content-oriented.

[MasterGod]

I agree with the observation that some people are too caught up in perfecting their code than actually producing anything.

A couple of days ago I asked a guy-with-a-game-engine for some of his demos. He had none to show me. Oh, hang on, he had a floating-logo-type-thing that could probably have been done in a few lines without a game engine. I can't fault the person's enthusiasm -and wanting to code things correctly is not a bad thing - but I think he, like others, "can't see the wood for the trees" and are too busy trying to perfect something than actually going off and making something.

Thing is - chances are their "well written" code will break anyway as soon as they really start to test it.

HEY HEY HEY!!!
Lets get this strait. It was my first application using irrlicht and I didn't knew as much as I know today about programming and Irrlicht. I wanted to see what I could do, learn the engine (irr), play with some OOP style code (which I never done before) and I was just showing off to friends with it. It was done pretty simple in a pretty primitive way. I didn't try to go for the all cleaned up / bugless / prefect code, I just wanted to show my friends some 3D stuff!
I didn't even thought of making an engine then, I wasn't Able to make an engine then (as simple as it can be), I was rather stupid (programming-wise) but I wasn't living in delusion!!
Oh and that logo stuff was, I think 3 months ago, actually I've checked now and it was on "Wed Sep 19, 2007" so don't compare the today me to the past me as I have learned A LOT since then.
"chances are their "well written" code will break anyway as soon as they really start to test it." - I do test my code as good as I can but I ain't perfect and I don't publish my tests. My code will never be perfect and I'm aware of that and learning from rogerborg and other's teaching I'm actually getting somewhere with my project instead of trying to perfect everything, I accept "unperfect" parts as long as they're working right.
I don't have much (if at all) demons with Irrlicht as I was doing them to learn and not to show off stuff.
Yes, I can't make today as good-looking demos using shaders or whatever like you and maybe my code wont be as clean as yours but I don't let that interfere me keep learning and so I don't have anything better to show you.

I'm really offended by this sio2, I feel you're being condescending (I hope my dictionary gave me the right word, if not I meant arrogant as in looking down on me)

I didn't expect such words from you..

P.S
As for "<<Puts on steel helmet and joins MKG in bunker>>" -> Good IDEA! (And stay there few days..)

[Seven]

MKG

Maybe what I say here wont convince you of the enjoyment that I get out of coding, but I'll try. I think of coding as a relaxing time in which I get to use my brain to create, similar to an artist that paints, except that my enjoyment is self contained. What I mean by self contained is that I really dont require that someone else look at my 'painting' and ooh and ahhh about it. It is enough that I know that I painted it. To someone who looks at a finished game as the end result of programming for hours and hours, I can see how you would think that my project isnt complete, however, you couldnt be more wrong. My project has been compete about 10,000 times. First I watched the screen blink random colors, then I saw the same thing in fullscreen, and then I saw a cube in the window. At one point, I even saw it rotate! I am sad to think tht you will never know what that feels like because you wont be able to get that much enjoyment out of a program that isnt cutting edge with real physics and an orchastra playing in the background.

I remind myself of someone who runs. First they jog, then they run, and then they decide to train for a marathon. Most of them really have no intention of winning the marathon. They dont even need for others to congratulate them on running the marathon. It is enough for them to know that they did it, all by themselves.

Remember that in this little life of ours, it isnt always about the destination. Sometimes it's about the journey.

[MKG]

Seven - point taken, but maybe I worded my moan badly. I didn't intend to get at anyone who just enjoys what they do. The people I was moaning about are some (not all) of those who, unlike you, present themselves and their work as examples. When someone like me - inexperienced in this particular field - begins to look for a tool to do a job, the only criteria I can use as a basis for judgement are the examples on offer. An example, ideally, should show whatever it's an example of in a good light - but a lot of them don't perform that basic function. In fact, a lot of examples do exactly the opposite, and I find that this is particularly true within the "3D engine used for games and game-like applications" field.

When I start producing work, I'm sure I'll feel exactly as you do - but only if I'm not tearing out my hair in frustration at having made a wrong decision at the outset.

I HAVE decided upon Irrlicht - but those naff examples (not only for Irrlicht) still nag at the back of my mind because they were pointed to by people OTHER than the creators.

Hence the moan.

[xDan]

I'd like to see what you consider a good example and a bad one, if that can be done without offending anyone... Then I can point you to some more good examples

I keep seeing lots of nice projects in the Announcements forum, also on the irrlicht3d.org blog. OK so there's also a lot of things that remain unfinished or are not very good but that's only to be expected with a 3D engine who's selling point is ease of use. The good projects still exist.

[Seven]

Seven - point taken, but maybe I worded my moan badly. I didn't intend to get at anyone who just enjoys what they do.

No worries mate. I normally dont respond to postings, but i kinda took a liking to yours for some reason or another.

When I start producing work, I'm sure I'll feel exactly as you do - but only if I'm not tearing out my hair in frustration at having made a wrong decision at the outset.

It's like the old saying that goes "find a job doing what you like and you'll never have to work a day in your life."

I HAVE decided upon Irrlicht

I am glad to hear it. I have a little project that I have been working on for about... 37 ? years and would love for someone to just toy around with it. If you get interested, let me know and I'll ship you a copy. Nothing grand mind you, but something that just might grab your attention and make you want to spend 40 years planning

anyhow, dont worry about my feelings, I have been around this planet long enough to know what to take to heart and what to just watch.

[MKG]

I'd like to see what you consider a good example and a bad one, if that can be done without offending anyone... Then I can point you to some more good examples

Yeah, it's difficult. However, let's have a go. A good example would show what Irrlicht is capable of in terms of event handling, AI, and how far it could be pushed toward visual realism during a game or game-like application. I'm not interested necessarily in fancy graphics because that's a function of the modeller. Just put Irrlicht through its hoops.

A bad example would be the type of thing I was offered earlier today (another site, another engine) which purports to be the hoop-jumping demo but glues the view to the ground after you look down, drops you into the wide blue yonder when you could have SWORN there was solid ground under your feet, displays leakage of a light source through a solid structure, shows the joins in the skybox etc. Or, at least, that would be a bad example if it was the developer rather than the engine which caused those things. How am I to know what was bad coding and what was an inherent hiccup in the engine?

That bad example leaves me thinking "What have I seen?" A good example would enable me to say "OK, now I know that these things are possible and all I need to do now is learn how to do them. This is the engine for me."

Basically, I think I'm saying that an example should have been developed as just that, rather than a snapshot of a work in progress. Does any of that make sense?

[dlangdev]

but some people find joy in the progress of a work. i have a few and met several people who see completeness and beauty in them.

take for example:



basically, a page taken from the procedural building spec we're currently making.

keep posting here and other places, you'll find people who share your sentiments, the same people who see beauty in the way you see them.

[xDan]

Here's two nice things, before I go to bed... I could find more, honest

http://www.irrgheist.com/hcraftscreenshots.htm
http://www.coolhouse.fi/gekkeiju/

They're just project examples though, not source code.

[Dorth]

A good example would show what Irrlicht is capable of in terms of event handling, AI, and how far it could be pushed toward visual realism during a game or game-like application. I'm not interested necessarily in fancy graphics because that's a function of the modeller.

Dude, Irrlicht is a GRAPHIC engine.
There is no AI modules of any kind, weither it be path-finding, problem resolution, fuzzy logic or anything. The event system, while good, is an addon. The fancy graphics it can do IS a good part of the deal. If you're looking for a game engine, you might be interested in a spin-off of Irrlicht or something else altogether. Irrlicht, again, is a graphic engine and as such should be judged and used mainly in that light.

[rogerborg]

But the core of the argument remains true - same old stuff EVEN FROM INDIE DEVELOPERS who should be able to break new ground but are usually more code-oriented than content-oriented.

Sure, I was only bantering. No argument there. Shall we try and work out why that is?

I'd put it down simply to this: concept and design is dull and (in the short term) unrewarding, doing it well is hard work, and there's no good metric for measuring quality. Thus, there's very little to attract quality people to the role of concept and design.

So the vast majority of our "Project Announcements" are just rehashes of existing concepts, because anything else would be, dude, like totally hard work. "Small Massives" and "next-next gen shooters" make up the bulk of them, sometimes - but not always - with some ostensibly original but always undefined and uncosted feature ("fully destructible environment" springs to mind).

Now, if those are coming from a code monkey, it's very understandable. Ripping off someone else's concept and design means that you can get right on with the interesting part, coding it. The entirety of the Free/Open Source cult is based on that model. Sometimes the point really is the journey and not the destination.

However, when an self described 'project lead' or 'ideas guy' turns up and churns out yet another of those clone-designs, it's just sheer laziness, and also pointless when they make the facile claim that it will be a commercial - but unfunded - project. It's futile to try and compete with an established commercial implementation using volunteer resources. You're starting from 3 or 4 years behind them, and by the time you complete your project (which you won't), you'll still be 3 or 4 years behind whatever's fresh on the market, with your stale ideas and $0 budget.

So, yes, it would be great if someone announced a really fresh project, with a strong and innovative concept and a detailed and achievable design, but I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for it, nor to bemoan that nobody else is doing what I can't do myself.

Mea culpa, by the way: my current project keeps veering back towards being a Netrek clone, because any design decision that takes it away from there looks like a wrong one. If your goal is to have people actually play your game, then cloning an existing one simply seems like the prudent way to go. After all, the original pitches for Pacman and Tetris didn't exactly blow peoples' socks off, and even if Gish and Darwinia covered their costs, who remembers the IGF runners up?