Regarding your post rogerborg, what would you say about my project then.
Feel free to say whatever you feel.
I know I'm going to be punished for this, but ...
NGE? Reminds me of ICE which has been around since... uh.. 2004? Didn't it stop being updated around Irrlicht 0.6? keless did a nice job with that.
I am curious about NGE, though. The structure around it seems solid and may play around with it in a future project. Just remember, that there are a lot of fishes in the sea and a lot of frameworks to put them in. If you keep building, you should get users.
I'm not a game guy, though. The only game I ever finished was a lame Missle Command clone called "Desert Defense". It was just a test of having every game piece being based off an object and use a lot of parentage and to try out some features of Irrlicht NX++. Though, simulations and other "try something out" stuff, I have a ton. I like frameworks and large bundles of data, so I work on things that involve it.
I am curious about NGE, though. The structure around it seems solid and may play around with it in a future project. Just remember, that there are a lot of fishes in the sea and a lot of frameworks to put them in. If you keep building, you should get users.
I'm not a game guy, though. The only game I ever finished was a lame Missle Command clone called "Desert Defense". It was just a test of having every game piece being based off an object and use a lot of parentage and to try out some features of Irrlicht NX++. Though, simulations and other "try something out" stuff, I have a ton. I like frameworks and large bundles of data, so I work on things that involve it.
Crud, how do I do this again?
And the thing inside your automobile is an internal combustion engine and is completely and utterly useless without the gizmos surrounding it. There's no particular great thing in exhibiting a running engine which is doing no work. And this IS the Game Programming forum, so I feel it safe to assume that anyone here would also assume the existence of add-on AI and event-handling systems. And if pure-bred Irrlicht should be judged and used mainly in that light, then someone should be pointing out to tyros like me what that light is - which is one of the two purposes of this thread. Look, if you want to sell me the latest loaf of bread, I'm going to want to taste it before I buy. There's no difference here - before I commit myself to a lot of work (which may turn out to be wasted if I commit wrongly) I want to see what the advantage would be.Dorth wrote:Dude, Irrlicht is a GRAPHIC engine.
There is no AI modules of any kind, weither it be path-finding, problem resolution, fuzzy logic or anything. The event system, while good, is an addon. The fancy graphics it can do IS a good part of the deal. If you're looking for a game engine, you might be interested in a spin-off of Irrlicht or something else altogether. Irrlicht, again, is a graphic engine and as such should be judged and used mainly in that light.
Where is the super-duper demo? A couple of still frames don't hack it, nor does a MMORPG necessarily running at reduced capacity. If I hadn't already made my decision (not really based upon anything I've been told or seen here) I'd be running for the hills right now. Everyone SAYS Irrlicht is good - where's the evidence?
just in case you're referring to the HCraft game, you can get the demo from their websiteA couple of still frames don't hack it
P.S. There certainly are other free and low cost engines out there with nicer features and demos than irrlicht. OGRE web pages are chock full of pretty things, C4 engine, uh, Torque... I don't know why you chose irrlicht!
The only advantage I personally see irrlicht as having is its ease of use. But that one thing makes Irrlicht the best engine for me.
Last edited by xDan on Mon Feb 04, 2008 8:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Methinks I'm flogging too many dead horses. The fact that someone can say that they don't see why I want to use Irrlicht in the first place is a tad worrying - have I possibly plumped for a beached whale? The fact that someone quotes a high number of users as evidence of quality is worrying considering that most of those users produce nothing but vapourware. The fact that I've been told several times about the intrinsic beauty of coding isn't worrying in itself - but the implied corollary that there is no place in the real world for Irrlicht to be used as what it is - a tool; a means to an end - is worrying.
I've said elsewhere what I want to produce - a straightforward walkthrough of a geographical model, possibly with character interaction but not necessarily so. I need to physically move the viewer through the landscape and, as that landscape is a historical reality, it must be represented in as realistic a manner as possible. Realism, as far as I can gather, necessitates a trade-off with animation performance. Now, as this project is rather dear to my heart and as I have already spent five years on the book and all of my once-rather-larger fortune on its production, free software is somewhat important in my decision to take the project beyond the book. So, I want the best free engine (and modeller and scene generator etc.) I can get. Is that too much to ask? I can't spend the next five years following up dead ends. So I ask for information, demos, examples. If that stuff isn't forthcoming, then it all boils down to sticking a pin into a list of engines. I, for one, have worked in engineering disciplines for most of my working life, and such an approach is anathema to me. I imagine that the proponents of C++ coding - a very tightly structured and disciplined way to pass the time - would be similarly antipathetic to chaos.
And yet - when I ask for that information, for those demos and examples, defensive walls shoot up all over the place. I'm sorry, but that's going to make even the most laid-back person in the world suspicious.
As none of you can tell me, let me tell you. I chose Irrlicht because it is going to continue in development for some time, so support (!!!) should be available into the foreseeable future. Its list of facilities and its list of projected facilities is comprehensive. There are a few people working with it whose work I've seen and admire (although, unfortunately, none who are working on something which would cast too much light on my own requirements). The general opinion on OGRE is that it's a mature engine which is probably nearing the end of its developmental lifecycle and is therefore going to be overtaken by hardware advances. Crystal Space, although undergoing a bit of a resurrection because of the Blender/CS cooperative project, is also a years-old engine. Wintermute isn't even 3D. Etc. etc.
That's why I chose Irrlicht. Since then, I've learned a lot more about engines and their abilities. I discovered, for instance, that an unextended graphics engine operates on sod all and therefore produces sod all (so please, let's cut out the eye-rolling antics of the "this is a GRAPHICS engine" brigade. I discovered that something which looks really great with DX9 switched on doesn't necessarily work at all under OpenGL (and I ask - is that the engine, the coder, or the DXP/OpenGL?). I get hold of a demo with light leaks all over the place (once again - engine or coder?). I see examples in which the particle emitters apparently go loopy for a half-second or so just as they come into the viewport (same question).
That's what I see with my own eyes. Do I trust my own eyes? Not to any great extent, because I'm no expert. So, ask the experts. So here I am, asking the questions. Maybe I haven't been straightforward enough. How about these, then? Is Irrlicht inherently light-leaky? Is its particle handling really so bad? Well, I already know that the answer to both questions is no because Christian's Level Demo showed me that. Unfortunately, that was the very demo which had the DX9/OpenGL problem (the water in the lake).
The futuristic race game is very impressive - but you can't see the engine for the modelling (or, at least, unless someone points out the error of my ways, I don't think you can).
What I need to be able to do is go one by one through the list of graphic requirements for my project, switch to the super-duper Irrlicht demo and be able to see at each point whether or not Irrlicht can deliver the requirement. Only then can I make the decision as to whether it is desirable or feasible to change the requirement to suit the engine, ask someone on this forum about a possible workaround, or dump the engine.
Enough of you put newbies down with the "you can't know that until you've planned your project meticulously" reponse. I have to turn that one about face. How is it possible to plan with Irrlicht in mind when the planning information (sorry, not the information, but the evidence that the information is correct) isn't forthcoming?
I've said elsewhere what I want to produce - a straightforward walkthrough of a geographical model, possibly with character interaction but not necessarily so. I need to physically move the viewer through the landscape and, as that landscape is a historical reality, it must be represented in as realistic a manner as possible. Realism, as far as I can gather, necessitates a trade-off with animation performance. Now, as this project is rather dear to my heart and as I have already spent five years on the book and all of my once-rather-larger fortune on its production, free software is somewhat important in my decision to take the project beyond the book. So, I want the best free engine (and modeller and scene generator etc.) I can get. Is that too much to ask? I can't spend the next five years following up dead ends. So I ask for information, demos, examples. If that stuff isn't forthcoming, then it all boils down to sticking a pin into a list of engines. I, for one, have worked in engineering disciplines for most of my working life, and such an approach is anathema to me. I imagine that the proponents of C++ coding - a very tightly structured and disciplined way to pass the time - would be similarly antipathetic to chaos.
And yet - when I ask for that information, for those demos and examples, defensive walls shoot up all over the place. I'm sorry, but that's going to make even the most laid-back person in the world suspicious.
As none of you can tell me, let me tell you. I chose Irrlicht because it is going to continue in development for some time, so support (!!!) should be available into the foreseeable future. Its list of facilities and its list of projected facilities is comprehensive. There are a few people working with it whose work I've seen and admire (although, unfortunately, none who are working on something which would cast too much light on my own requirements). The general opinion on OGRE is that it's a mature engine which is probably nearing the end of its developmental lifecycle and is therefore going to be overtaken by hardware advances. Crystal Space, although undergoing a bit of a resurrection because of the Blender/CS cooperative project, is also a years-old engine. Wintermute isn't even 3D. Etc. etc.
That's why I chose Irrlicht. Since then, I've learned a lot more about engines and their abilities. I discovered, for instance, that an unextended graphics engine operates on sod all and therefore produces sod all (so please, let's cut out the eye-rolling antics of the "this is a GRAPHICS engine" brigade. I discovered that something which looks really great with DX9 switched on doesn't necessarily work at all under OpenGL (and I ask - is that the engine, the coder, or the DXP/OpenGL?). I get hold of a demo with light leaks all over the place (once again - engine or coder?). I see examples in which the particle emitters apparently go loopy for a half-second or so just as they come into the viewport (same question).
That's what I see with my own eyes. Do I trust my own eyes? Not to any great extent, because I'm no expert. So, ask the experts. So here I am, asking the questions. Maybe I haven't been straightforward enough. How about these, then? Is Irrlicht inherently light-leaky? Is its particle handling really so bad? Well, I already know that the answer to both questions is no because Christian's Level Demo showed me that. Unfortunately, that was the very demo which had the DX9/OpenGL problem (the water in the lake).
The futuristic race game is very impressive - but you can't see the engine for the modelling (or, at least, unless someone points out the error of my ways, I don't think you can).
What I need to be able to do is go one by one through the list of graphic requirements for my project, switch to the super-duper Irrlicht demo and be able to see at each point whether or not Irrlicht can deliver the requirement. Only then can I make the decision as to whether it is desirable or feasible to change the requirement to suit the engine, ask someone on this forum about a possible workaround, or dump the engine.
Enough of you put newbies down with the "you can't know that until you've planned your project meticulously" reponse. I have to turn that one about face. How is it possible to plan with Irrlicht in mind when the planning information (sorry, not the information, but the evidence that the information is correct) isn't forthcoming?
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rogerborg
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So this one time, this guy sits down next to me at the bar and asks me whether I'd recommend what I'm drinking, and I tell him that it's OK. Then he buys a pint, takes one mouthful and gags, and then he's yelling at me that it's awful, and that I don't know spit about barley and hops, and I've no business giving out advice to busy people who only have the time to finish one pint. So I offered him a full refund on what he'd paid for the advice.
Please upload candidate patches to the tracker.
Need help now? IRC to #irrlicht on irc.freenode.net
How To Ask Questions The Smart Way
Need help now? IRC to #irrlicht on irc.freenode.net
How To Ask Questions The Smart Way
Another guy walks into the same bar, looks around, sees one guy sitting at the bar and a bartender. He asks the bartender what would be good. "Depends what you want" said the barkeep. After a few questions and answers, the recommendation is made, the guy buys his beer and lives happily ever after. The guy sitting at the bar sidles over and says "You know, if you'd asked me, I'd have asked why you were asking and then told you that you shouldn't be asking".
I couldn't have said it any way better..rogerborg wrote:So this one time, this guy sits down next to me at the bar and asks me whether I'd recommend what I'm drinking, and I tell him that it's OK. Then he buys a pint, takes one mouthful and gags, and then he's yelling at me that it's awful, and that I don't know spit about barley and hops, and I've no business giving out advice to busy people who only have the time to finish one pint. So I offered him a full refund on what he'd paid for the advice.
MKG, we understand your fear, your concern, but you must understand that unless you try yourself the engine, making small games/editors/whatever, testing whatever you want, not judging by how many demos - demos that follow your requirements, you will never have answers for your questions.
I do agree with some parts, yes, I shouldn't have mentioned the members number as a factor but to me as to many of our members, words, pictures, cool demos like sio2's, can't provide the information we desire about Irrlicht.
We've all heard how amazingly easy and yet powerful (sounds familiar
) Irrlicht is, but until we've tested it ourselves we could never know.So, how about, instead of asking for evidence, create it yourself and prove yourself what we are all already know?
Dev State: Abandoned (For now..)
Requirements Analysis Doc: ~87%
UML: ~0.5%
Er, no it's most definitely a 3D engine! Not a whale. Whales are big fishy mammaly thingshave I possibly plumped for a beached whale?
...if your primary goal is the engine with the greatest quantity of well made demos, then yes, you have. OGRE has more.
Well, can you settle for nice lightmapping? Irrlicht does that. Also does normal mapping. Anything much else and you'll have to use shaders, which you'll have to write yourself. (but remember, if you're writing it yourself, then pretty much anything IS possible, it'll just take time!)it must be represented in as realistic a manner as possible
It's impressive - doesn't that answer your question? It shows what you can achieve. You want to achieve something impressive. If there are things which aren't demoed in that (I don't think shadows were), then assume it can't support them until you find an example which does.The futuristic race game is very impressive - but you can't see the engine for the modelling
At the end of the day, there's not a "super-duper Irrlicht demo". No one's made one. End of story. Sorry
But there are many smaller examples of things- e.g. normal mapping, bloom - see sio2's web pages for things like car physics...If you want to list the exact features you want to see demoed, we can point you to some examples. Or tell you they don't exist, as the case may be
Okay .... Okay...... up goes the white flag. I'll take your advice, Mastergod, and just get down to it. I suspect everyone will be relieved.
And maybe when I've finished Project No. 1, I'll make the super-super demo that doesn't exist .....NOOOO Don't hit me, Rogerborg!!! AAAAAGGHHHHHH
Now, does anyone know where I can get a mesh of a 13th century Benedictine monk? (NO - not being serious). Thanks all for trying - I think maybe my powers of expression are sinking as I get older and I don't explain myself clearly enough. Enough - down to work ...
And maybe when I've finished Project No. 1, I'll make the super-super demo that doesn't exist .....NOOOO Don't hit me, Rogerborg!!! AAAAAGGHHHHHH
Now, does anyone know where I can get a mesh of a 13th century Benedictine monk? (NO - not being serious). Thanks all for trying - I think maybe my powers of expression are sinking as I get older and I don't explain myself clearly enough. Enough - down to work ...
Re: I know I'm going to be punished for this, but ...
What I said was factually accurate. I asked you for your demos and you replied "yes". I asked to see them and you came up with one.MasterGod wrote: I'm really offended by this sio2, I feel you're being condescending (I hope my dictionary gave me the right word, if not I meant arrogant as in looking down on me)
I didn't expect such words from you..
How you interpret my factual posting is up to you.
Irrlicht Demos: http://irrlicht.sourceforge.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=45781
you are funny guys.
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i always wondering : why somebody sticked to something if it is so useless. what is the problem? -- get another engine. if no one engine cannot fit your needs... hmm .. maybe the problem in your self?
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i know only one thing : good worker is able to work with any tools.
it is just like youtube's Mona Lisa drawing using MS Paint... give me super-PhotoshopCS10 -- i cannot create even something 10 times uglier than some people do.
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p.s.: currently i am working on self-studying-of-skeletal-animation for my tiny project -- and i know that this is my problem, not Irrlicht's.
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that is all how i see it.
Irrlicht is great!
my own opinion.
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i always wondering : why somebody sticked to something if it is so useless. what is the problem? -- get another engine. if no one engine cannot fit your needs... hmm .. maybe the problem in your self?
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i know only one thing : good worker is able to work with any tools.
it is just like youtube's Mona Lisa drawing using MS Paint... give me super-PhotoshopCS10 -- i cannot create even something 10 times uglier than some people do.
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p.s.: currently i am working on self-studying-of-skeletal-animation for my tiny project -- and i know that this is my problem, not Irrlicht's.
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that is all how i see it.
Irrlicht is great!
my own opinion.
greenya:
well, have you thought about this...
what if mkg (nottinghamshirensis) can't use the paint program, then he will have to use photoshop which will make the guy produce great works of art. simply because anyone can produce nice looking textures by the use of perlin noise and other filters in photoshop, anyone can make a texture and slap it to a polygon.
that's why he posted a demand letter nailing it at the door asking the citizens or irrlicht land to come up with good looking demos, or else.
"irrlicht ist teh suck!"
see where this is going?
am i making any sense?
of course!
well, have you thought about this...
what if mkg (nottinghamshirensis) can't use the paint program, then he will have to use photoshop which will make the guy produce great works of art. simply because anyone can produce nice looking textures by the use of perlin noise and other filters in photoshop, anyone can make a texture and slap it to a polygon.
that's why he posted a demand letter nailing it at the door asking the citizens or irrlicht land to come up with good looking demos, or else.
"irrlicht ist teh suck!"
see where this is going?
am i making any sense?
of course!
