A picture is worth a thousand words

NW · Post by NW » Tue Sep 02, 2008 2:13 am

Heh, there is a small, small, Small chance that I have sparked this curious lil post ^_^
Not that I have empathy in me, that I feel I have to save you guys from a confusing thread :P but what I do feel is the curiocity regarding whatcha guys think regarding this.

So here's the quote - pls don't get offended whoever - that is not my intention. I use sometimes a harsh labguage to colorfully illustrate my point ^_^ and make it clear that I do CARE in the subject:

Hmm looking closer to that Vid example, it doesn't seem to be a bump-map, but at best the usage of a displacement map, which isnt rly much different than modeleing - and specifcially using shapes for what could be replaced by textures.
I'm sorry to say - and hope you won't take it the wrong way - considering the ages we're in - I would label MYSELF that irrlicht thing a Fail.
Bioshock, Crysis...I know they have 100mln budgets.
But what they Do present, is crispy engines of stuff like flawless bump-map usages.

Unless theres' some different goal?
Making a supper slim package, so it worx on a cellphone perhaps?
Doesn't seem so, but it might be an option.
There I guess it might be impressive in some way, but nowadays, on a pc? :/

Personal opinion note: Imho in specifically today's times (cos in the far, far, far future when RT raytracing comes into the picture)
, in this specific time - a good bump-map support and good usage of it via lighting - is crucial for the look of success!

I stumbled upon this someday randomly surfing:
Some ppl said nice, but not as good comparing to bioshocks and other suchs stuffs.
I disagree - I think it's impressive in the very least - for RT anyway.

It's imho the perfect example of why, good bump-maps make such a difference: surely the model of the charactter is simple as always must be.
There's no visible "crappy model saves" via using lotsa colors or something - its basically one color + lightning color maybe.
Neither does the bg somehow "save" something here.
The way i see it - all this is is - awesome bump-map support + good bump-map texture usage alone + basic reaction of lighting twards that bumpmap.
And I think THAT is specifically what can make you be noticed in these 3d-whore-consumer times ^_^

So? I don't know specifics of the engine - maybe good bump support is there, but irregardless - what's your opinion in general in the field?

Thx n cheers!

dlangdev · Post by **dlangdev** » Tue Sep 02, 2008 4:26 am

No waaaaaayyyyyyyyy~~~~!!!!

Virion · Post by **Virion** » Tue Sep 02, 2008 5:01 am

irrlicht does support bump map and displacement map. check out the demo.

JP · Post by JP » Tue Sep 02, 2008 7:32 am

You're saying that Irrlicht is pointless when there's engines out there that the likes of Crytek's engine and Unreal engine etc?

They're for commercial games, you pay a huge amount to use those engines. Irrlicht isn't aimed at being used in commercial games it's more aimed at hobbyist developers (or at least that's probably who it's mostly used by, but it's still used commercially too). So you really can't compare them and say it's an epic fail and waste of time... Without the likes of Irrlicht and Ogre engines hobbyist developers would be left with nothing (apart from OGL and DX) as they can't afford to use the high priced commercial engines.

Irrlicht does have excellent features, all of which you probably didn't see in one video or screenshot so you can't judge it just from that. Also if Irrlicht doesn't have a feature you can just add it yourself

I'm not lashing out at you if that's the way it sounds, just pointing out you can't compare Irrlicht to commercial engines

rogerborg · Post by **rogerborg** » Tue Sep 02, 2008 7:50 am

I honestly have no idea what either of the first two posters are saying. I blame their parents: never marry someone with same last name as you.

happilylazy · Post by **happilylazy** » Tue Sep 02, 2008 10:48 am

Imagine you want to learn programming computer games, and want to see what is possible there in the wast world (3d and real one).
Pay millions for Crytek's engine or download IrrLicht or any other free game engine and start learning.
In my story I chose IrrLicht.

All engines use the same structure, it just that implementations are different (because all the paid people working on commercial ones). LEARN from IrrLich and later in life USE commercial engines if you need.

But remember that sooner or later IrrLicht is gonna have all the flashy stuff from Crytek's engine, as soon as somebody implements it. So (as JP posted) if you want something, implement it and share.

sio2 · Post by **sio2** » Tue Sep 02, 2008 5:25 pm

Yeah, well my next demo will be worth a thousand words when I release it...

randomMesh · Post by **randomMesh** » Tue Sep 02, 2008 7:59 pm

rogerborg wrote:I blame their parents: never marry someone with same last name as you.

You exceeded the limit with this post. I gonna talk to you about this.

dlangdev · Post by **dlangdev** » Tue Sep 02, 2008 8:21 pm

OK, now for the second post.

Bump mapping should be entry-level that the API has to have them.

And it is--actually--provided for in Irrlicht.

Personally, if I had the time and technical ability, I'd set up the RenderMonkey/FXcomposer workflow From-To Irrlicht. Because that's the way to move forward creating models with shader code behind them.

Only the likes of Blindside / Nadro / [insert_your_name_here] can do that, tho.

So yeah, I'm stuck right now until someone creates a toolbox full of shader code that will run on Irrlicht.

Halifax · Post by **Halifax** » Tue Sep 02, 2008 9:37 pm

Yeah, Irrlicht doesn't have everything, but it has enough. And if it doesn't have something that you really really need, then look up the specification, and you can implement it yourself probably if you have some experience.

At any rate, Irrlicht and CryEngine2 were built with two totally seperate goals and target audiences considering the difference in dates between both initiations.

So comparing the two engines, you just can't do that. Plain and simple. And if you aren't feeling Irrlicht, then you can always go to the engine next to door, like Ogre.

bitplane · Post by **bitplane** » Tue Sep 02, 2008 10:16 pm

NW wrote:<snip> but irregardless - what's your opinion in general in the field?

Read more, write less.

Regarding the picture, I think what rogerborg meant is that a thousand words are still worthless if they don't have any context.
What type of shading is that? I'm guessing env + virtual displacement + specular + diffuse.
What's it rendered on, what was it made in and by who?

Without any information I guess all I can say is "it's pretty"

sio2 wrote:Yeah, well my next demo will be worth a thousand words when I release it...

Looking forward to it

dlangdev · Post by **dlangdev** » Tue Sep 02, 2008 11:02 pm

Well, for one, the rendered image doesn't have cubemapping or ambient occlusion in there.

The chains look pretty rounded. There are probably a *gazillion* polygons in there.

For cubemaps, I would prefer DDS for RenderMonkey compatibility. But that's just me.

Well, it's probably rendered in Maya!

lostclimategames · Post by **lostclimategames** » Wed Sep 03, 2008 5:11 am

I honestly have no idea what either of the first two posters are saying. I blame their parents: never marry someone with same last name as you.

There is no way that could have been put any better. I still can't figure out why the first person posted that....

BlindSide · Post by **BlindSide** » Wed Sep 03, 2008 7:11 am

I wish I had art like that. Nothing related to Irrlicht or 3D engines though. If you want a material, I'll create it. Don't support floating point textures? Fine, I'll pack it into an RGBA8, Don't support cubemaps? Fine, I'll pack it into a virtual cubemap/dual parabaloid, they only need 2 passes anyway. I don't really see where this thread is going, or where it started for that matter.