Blender smells

Discussion about everything. New games, 3d math, development tips...
vermeer
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Post by vermeer »

No, the fact is I am patient.

but anyway I allways use several tools, even in a same project.

Even being able to model any object with Wings, I may feel in the mood for a certain object to use Hamapatch splines for that, just for a change, or as is mroe suited than other.

i made my own exporter which generates smoothing groups out of blender's smooth/solid face information. i do floodfills to convert smooth areas surrounded by solid areas to smoothing groups. for solid faces i can set an angle threshold to let the floodfill algorithm group them together to bigger patches. it works quite well!
Yup, surely. The fact is that you are not visualizing them, neither fixing opengl/dx problems that will happen with certain smoothing normals issues. One of the reasons why is better to have them at edit time, and not at export time. You need to know when normals will darken the surface a bit, etc, etc...Or how a human face does look with certain smoothing vertex normals.

I agree there are lots of solutions. Mine tend to be not model with Blender and just import the obj in it and animate there the character, or simply export the obj and do add the smooth groups/hard edges in whatever the modelers I have: Wings3d, Milkshape, etc.Is not that a game artist needs it actually a really final result only, but in edit time.

Anyway, stuff can be done anyway, faster or slower, better or not, in that I'd agree.

it's not really true that the blender developers are elitist.
Somebody mentioned that in an older post (I didn't) Actually I think it looks like lately they're more eager to include requested features, or that may be my impression.

I don't think they are elitists (well, not the developers; as I do have seen elitist users) I think they're focused in movie making, more than in games. That's said by some of them, at least.

I was many months asking for better character animation tools, as well as a few others did (it's clear that Blender users are majorly modelers, texturers and people more in the mood of renders and scene building than character animators, I mean, I have been seen since years few character animators, there. ) I had lost hope of seing the essential features to make animation much more functional. But now is actually hapening.Just download 2.40 alpha 2...is really good now in that department. I am testing right now ghosting (very similar to my XSI hehe) , and that automatic IK sweet thing.

I have even just imported x files exported by Jox or ben's x exporter and added smooth groups *after* all animation was done, outside , in other package. So, there are allways many ways, and easy ones, of course. I just meant it'd be really important to have multiple UVs, and smooth groups viewing and checking in viewport, not only at export time. I model for games basing a lot on how smoothing surfaces do react with certain smooth groups/hard edges. And is not same effect than breaking the mesh.

they are quite open for suggestions. the problem is that they have limited programmer resources and of course the programmers first work on what they like to work on the most.
that's true, and they are right about that. I think one have to take Blender on what it is, not try to think is an allmighty tool, neithe rthat it sucks, as nothing of that is true.

I could do stuff with complex workarounds which I actually know and have done when 3d softwares, even comercial, was not capable to do stuff, or just for being the freak I am. But today I see no reason for that. Even Blender has that road: make it easier for the artist, as we could be loosing the target, which is make art, not make art in a lot of time, and in the most complex and time consuming way. I am all about speed and accurateness on get my ideas into 3d.

BTW, try 2.40 alpha 2, it has several cool things....

Dunno if jox will continue updating his x exporter branch for irrlicht, would be cool, I have not tested his 1.32 exporter with this alpha...I think the API has changed, so...dunno.
Finally making games again!
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dhenton9000
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Post by dhenton9000 »

vermeer wrote:
BTW, try 2.40 alpha 2, it has several cool things....

Dunno if jox will continue updating his x exporter branch for irrlicht, would be cool, I have not tested his 1.32 exporter with this alpha...I think the API has changed, so...dunno.
I can tell you for sure that it fails. they've gone to python 2.4 and the jox exporter chokes.
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Post by Guest »

i think the updated armature api isn't ready yet. no exporter will be able to export bones at the moment. once it is done exporters will probably need some changes.
MrPotatoes
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Post by MrPotatoes »

Midnight wrote:blah maya is poop for game design... so much easier to use 3ds...hell blender is easier then maya...

plus maya sold out... great tool for movies though... a little overly simple i would say.
most game developers are moving over to Maya. Maya has the best formats and works the best for anything that you want to do. abeit it's expensive but you get what you pay for.

i don't do modeling but everyone in animation swears by it. all the people that i know professionally in the industry swear by it.

the interface is not convuloted. i guess you guys wouldn't like CAD software then. because its all the same. 3 views, then some tabbies here and there. get over it. not everything that is free is the best. granted that's what i shoot for plus open source (so i can see what i'm working with) but doesn't mean that it's the best

would i rather use this engine over Renderware? yes. irrlicht is open source, easy to work with (so far) and gives me less of a headache. i've used renderware and it's great for making crossplatform games that look great. but i've use it and it's hard to get into. once you understand the intricacies you can produce something very good lloking (SSX3, Burnout etc). if i were making a full commerical game that i wanted to make buttloads of money would i use this one or renderware? i don't know. it's not totally up to me. the software architect would have a big say as well. would i use Maya or Blender? blender creates some cool results but NOTHING compared to what Maya can produce even just in dynamics.

its like saying Renderman sucks because you don't know how to use it, haven't used it or because it costs too much money and you have to be connected to thier network to use it. i don't know, cuz i think the movies that pixar makes are increasingly good (story AND grafix).

am i bashing blender. no. i've never use it. so it would be incredibly narrow sighted and ignorant of me to do so. does interface matter at all when you use anything? hell yes. ever play a game where the controls suck? or a game where you don't know how to use the menu or worse...it's too confusing? i have. takes me out of it. i KNOW that i'm playing a game and that makes it worse. i've been taught, and retaught and retaught that if the controls suck, your games suck. then levels, then gameplay then AI and Physics (cuz you can fake those to a certain extent).

what i'm saying is that free/open source != GOD.

have a good one :D
Eternl Knight
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Post by Eternl Knight »

I was the guy that posted about their "elitist" atitude, and I stick by it. While they may "now" be implmenting features people have requested/suggested - when they are suggested unless you are ( a ) one of the developers or ( b ) the idea is an extension of their existing features - you will be trounced on.

Right now their focus is on stuff that can be used for movie creation (due to their "Orange" project) and as such, stuff that was originally tossed out as "bad ideas" or "not worth the effort" are suddenly taking priority.

Implementing features that Ton does not like (regardless of how useful or highly requested they are) will not make it into the main trunk. For example, Ton has stated that CAD/CAM like utilities will not be allowed. So one cannot make a box EXACTLY 10 units wide. This is easy to implement (and has been in several branches), but will not be integrated as it is against Ton's "artistiic philosophy". Which is fine, he controls the featureset and all, but it IS elitist.

Sure it's free and it IS better than a smack upside the head. But that does not necessarily make it GOOD or immune to criticism. There are other free & open-source applications out there much better at modelling (Wings3D) and rendering (Pixie). The problem I see at the moment is the fact that there is a missing "animation" area. And until very recently - Blender didn't give a poop about that.

--EK
MrPotatoes
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Joined: Mon Nov 07, 2005 5:55 am

Post by MrPotatoes »

i'm not going to say anything about blender being elitest but i wouldn't doubt it. but i don't know so i can't say anything. never really used the software for anything. Maya is king lol

either way, with alot of programs most programmers are very attached to thier code. some welcome critiques and requests because they know it'll become better because of it. i on the other hand can take the request and critiques but only if it's open source. reason is because if i can't do it (usually can't) then i ask them to do it. give it to me and i'll implement it within time. that is the beuty of open source.

i'm liking this community more and more. because no matter what it seems to be one of the best of the open source and more people could tand to learn a thing or two from this place.

and coding standards. it's awesome
vermeer
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Post by vermeer »

Mr potatoes, Do u know Autodesk has recently purchased Alias ? maya could disappear...though imho Autodesk will just gear Maya for films and Max for games...If u can't with the competition, buy it...Autodesk has so much money.


Many at cgtalk are fearing Maya will stop.

I don't,(i don't mind, Max is my tool at work) I think they surely will be separate things , alive till 2009 0r the like, but slowly tending to melt into a weird one thing. Or...As i said before, Autodesk will simply focus Maya on films and Max on games, mainly to protect the Max product, who knows. Is pretty open now to guessing.


btw, blender is capable of more than an indy could do with any package...yet is not "divine" like some say .

Look here, it proves the tool is powerful :

http://www.thirdwave.de/



"Sure it's free and it IS better than a smack upside the head. But that does not necessarily make it GOOD or immune to criticism."

So much agree.

" There are other free & open-source applications out there much better at modelling (Wings3D)"

I agree, in modeling.

" and rendering (Pixie). The problem I see at the moment is the fact that there is a missing "animation" area. And until very recently - Blender didn't give a poop about that."


Yup.Been crying for long to see it all added in a sudden lately...

No, seriously. Is not the godlike tool too many blender users say it is.(some wiser learnt to have a more balanced concept of it ) Neither is crap or smelly. This last comment is more from ppl that never ever was able to learn it, or are not interested in learning it. Which I anyway don't cirticize. If it doesn't feel well for you, it doesn't.
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afecelis
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Post by afecelis »

maya won't dissapear. nor will max try to implement maya's code into max. Both products will keep on coming out as separate things; they just got rid of the competitiona and now all of the income will go into just one bag :wink: Just like adobe buying macromedia; we all thought flash, dreamweaver, freehand and the other tools would disappear, but they're still there, even under the same names and brands. Commercially it's not a smart move, so what they are really buying is the right to use the names and brands as well for the profit of a single company.

But very deep inside I'm happy I bought 3dsmax, hehehehehehe :wink:

@Vermeer: On the other hand, I read in an article that if Autodesk-Discreet tried one of those moves, many (if not all) of Maya users would switch to Softimage rather than start using 3dsmax, ehehehehhe. So then they would be in your field my friend :wink:
ps. I'm thinking of getting foundation 5.0. I'll drop you a letter to get some advice
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Post by Guest »

they are not elitist! did joeri made a snappy comment on you at the blender forum or what? :) he isn't really a blender developer.

blender has a lack of developers. there is 1 full time developer and about 10 active developers who work on it in their free time. that's not comparable to the huge teams of max/maya/xsi/...

since the developers have to do all the work of course they decide what's worth the effort at the current time. they know the blender source and how feasible something is to implement. not the non-programming feature requesting users.

if there were enough developers for every part of blender then they wouldn't have to prioritise development that much on one thing all the time.



you can't make a cube 10 units wide in blender? :) i agree that blender lacks some nicer snapping tools and so on but i there is a difference in cad/cam tools and dcc tools like blender (or maya or whatever). blender shouldn't become autocad.
luckymutt
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Post by luckymutt »

I suspect the only real change that Autodesk will eventually make with Max and Maya would be workflow integration. That is, to provide solid import/export of each other's native file formats. Anything else would be changes on the back end.

They each have vary distinct base markets (granted, with a fair amount of crossover) Maya is used extensively by film and television(weta, ILM), and Max is predominate in architectural visualiztion in addtion to some film/tv work. I suppose the game industry is where you'll find a wider variety of software use.

Point being, because of the historical user base in various fields, they'll both stick around.

Hell, if they've seen value in keeping 3D Studio Max and 3D Studio VIZ as seperate products, there's no way in hell they'd combine or do away with Maya with anything.

I'm a Max user, and have only played around with blender out of curiosity, but it seems to be pretty powerful with what it has. I hope it continues to grow, but for what I do, I can't see using it in production.
afecelis
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Post by afecelis »

I'm also a max user but I must say I do feel comfortable modeling in blender although It took me a while to get used to the shortcuts and the interface. (although to be honest it's one of the most customizable UI's I've seen in a 3d package, and I had no problem making it look like a standard 3d program)
http://www.danielpatton.com/afecelis/Bl ... erface.jpg

Blender has got some modeling options that are easier to work with (like beveling models) and this makes it a perfect complementary tool for any 3d artist.

I still don't know how to UV map my models properly in Blender, I just know how to apply materials to them which is ok for a render but if I export my models I don't get the texturing info exported with them. But I'm sure many offices-studios use it on an everyday basis as their primary modeling-rendering tool and they are very competitive in the 3d business.

I'm also sure I don't even know 1.0% of blender's power, but it's a process.

here are some more experiments of blender:
refernce image (scan form a magazine)
http://www.danielpatton.com/afecelis/Bl ... chen01.JPG

blendere project-WIP, test render with yafray; trying to simulate the same lighting condition:
http://www.danielpatton.com/afecelis/Bl ... chen02.jpg
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Post by Guest »

http://members.iinet.net.au/~cpbarton/i ... rchimap.py
for Architecture (yeah, yeah), or try zer0d's autouv tool.

and LSCM mapping for biological forms. Don't forget to learn to pin the right points.
For a head i do a cylindrical map first then pin the some corner points and remap with LSCM.
Eternl Knight
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Post by Eternl Knight »

For the record - it was not Joeri who blasted me (& others), it was Ton himself.

--EK
MrPotatoes
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Joined: Mon Nov 07, 2005 5:55 am

Post by MrPotatoes »

vermeer, yes i am. although it took me ahwile to remember it after i posted twice already lmao!

anyway, as i've stated before and i'll say it one last time. Maya so far is the tool for the current generation of game deveolpment. as is 3DMax but to a little lesser extent. for professionals. but doesn't mean it's the best. but that also doesn't mean that something that you get for free is better because it is so.

you silly people
elander
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Post by elander »

Anonymous wrote: it's not really true that the blender developers are elitist. they are quite open for suggestions. the problem is that they have limited programmer resources and of course the programmers first work on what they like to work on the most.
Of course they aren't elitists. Thats the only weapon bitches have against open source projects. It's to call developers elitists when they don't do what they want. Bitches don't care if the developers have limited resources or not.

Now if someone doesn't like an open-source project like Blender they can either try to help without bitching or shut the gently caress up.
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