I wasn't really asking for a mac port anyway - I was saying in the LONG RUN (ie long term usefulness and life of the engine) a MAC port would be a better place to spend his energy that on things like software rendering, .NET and Linux.
OpenGl is obviously a given on MAC and I wouldn't think he should every stop trying to improve that.
As I said - at this time (for the next few releases) I believe he should concentrate on the small things that make a perfect working / fast engine and then layer new stuff on top otherwise he will get overwhelmed trying to debug more and more stuff before doing the basics.
And I appreciate his work greatly, Irrlicht is wonderful even in it's non final state.
0.14.0
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Guest
i dont want to discuss that opengl/directx thing again, i did a little ago and it turned out into a huge flame war."i have no problems with 012 so why should i change"
... the main reasons is: If you don't have problems that doesn't mens that other people using your application will not have .
OpenGl i think is only avaible if you have 3d hardware ..
I was geting 2 fps at everithink i tested wit OpenGl because i didn't instaled my video card drivers ... and the dx was working perfectly ...
If you trie to do somethink, and expect many people to use'it you should give a chance for as many users as possble to use'it.
but i easily solve the problem like that: im making the project for myself. i dont plan to sell it, its a hobby. so if it works 100% for me, im pleased. i have 8 or 9 computers to test my project, and all of them made no trouble.
anyway, if anyone intends to use my project (actually play it) he should be prepared that it will not run on systems without any graphic cards driver installed (and i think most if not all games wont run without graphics driver too) - if not, he can not run it, i dont care. i dont expect people playing my game. im just going to put it on my homepage, if someone wants to play it, fine. if someone can not run it, he should write a bug report and i will try to fix it. but i will not develop for some target group which does not even have graphic drivers installed. and if iam capable of creating good graphics, why should i go for 1995-shareware-style? i know all the computers of my friends, all of them have 3d cards, all of them have drivers installed, all of them would really like to beta-test the game if its in beta-state some day - so that should be no problem too.
you have a different point of view because i think you want to sell your game, you have to care for customers, because they pay for your game. i dont have to
ps: lol, if you have no graphic cards driver installed, its impossible that any 3D app gets more than a few frames, neverseless of the API you choose ...
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pr3t3nd3r_guest
... i tested my game for 3 monts on 3 computers and it worked fine. i test'it on 2 other and it was crushing ...GFXstyLER wrote: but i easily solve the problem like that: im making the project for myself. i dont plan to sell it, its a hobby. so if it works 100% for me, im pleased. i have 8 or 9 computers to test my project, and all of them made no trouble.
you have a different point of view because i think you want to sell your game, you have to care for customers, because they pay for your game. i dont have to
ps: lol, if you have no graphic cards driver installed, its impossible that any 3D app gets more than a few frames, neverseless of the API you choose ...
Yes. That was the first think that make me care about what video driver the game suports. But now it become an natural think. I think is bether to have many choices and options.
I realy don't like when i'm trying an freware game and it is asking for:
- A 1.5GHz Pentium3/Athlon or faster.
- 512MB of RAM (or more)
- A Geforce4Ti (or higher) or ATI Radeon8500 (or higher) graphics card
supporting pixel shaders 1.3, preferably with 128MB or more of VRAM.
and that just for the program to render few images ...
(the uper reguest i have them from my netork form an application what was having the directory renamed to "incredilble hardware reguest" )
And an other think ... we try to do some game ... and some deay probabily we will have to do an job interview.
You will have to say that you made X application. And when you will show them your application you will have an surprise: it will not run or will run but will not render corectly (bugs in video card driver ... etc).
+ doing an friendly requrements application will be an +
Also there are lot's of free 3d engines, some promise more than irrlicht. Irrlicht is so succesuful because it dosn't ask the users to be experts programers to do somethink with it, is verry whell documented, and have an verry cool comunity. I realy don't think that on other forums an topic like this one could exist with out being closed verry fast .......
Any application you do should be as friendly as you can possble do'it.
your ps ... you are rigt but the situation was like this.
Windows have identified the video card and installed the video drivers so i didn't tried to instal the drivers prom card producers.
DirectX was working fine ... and the programs using openGL show me no error just an verry low fps .... only after i installed a program that have give me warning that no hardware is avaible for opengl i realized that drivers were mising ...
... and is logical ... what are tha chances that microsoft will include the opengl drivers for video card ...
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Guest
i agree with your post i only have one single crit: the hardware requirements are relative to the game graphics quality. okay, you can create good graphics and use very HIGH requirements, and you can do very good graphics with low requirements, but if your game uses shaders for example, you simply have to require shaders because it wont run otherwise
or you change your game so you can choose between the detail levels. i can choose between very low (look not bad too and gives a 600fps and even on old systems it stays above 300-400 ) and very high (looks pretty good, gives a 250fps and on old systems a 70fps .. its not so much, but everything above 35fps is accepted as OK and also its the "very high" settings, which old system should not use anyway). i also provide a "driver" combobox in my game settings menu were you can choose between opengl/directx, so that will solve your problem.
thus, the game will be playable on a wider range of computers. but thats nothing new, just a few settings and not hardcoded stuff. i think you´ ve done that too
see you pretender
i only have one single crit: the hardware requirements are relative to the game graphics quality. okay, you can create good graphics and use very HIGH requirements, and you can do very good graphics with low requirements, but if your game uses shaders for example, you simply have to require shaders because it wont run otherwiseor you change your game so you can choose between the detail levels. i can choose between very low (look not bad too and gives a 600fps and even on old systems it stays above 300-400 ) and very high (looks pretty good, gives a 250fps and on old systems a 70fps .. its not so much, but everything above 35fps is accepted as OK and also its the "very high" settings, which old system should not use anyway). i also provide a "driver" combobox in my game settings menu were you can choose between opengl/directx, so that will solve your problem.
thus, the game will be playable on a wider range of computers. but thats nothing new, just a few settings and not hardcoded stuff. i think you´ ve done that too
see you pretender
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Guest
Just for the record OGL will run in an emulated/software mode if it can't find the correct drivers which is why you got 3fps.
I have a contigency (test) against this with an additonal call I've added to irrlicht - driver->isOpenGlHardware() - if it is false it will give the user a warning and quit rather than just go ahead and use the "useless" OGL software mode.
Of course (on windows) I test for DX8 first and would always recommend this on Windows at this point in time (for irrlicht).
GFXstyler is correct about not having to care because it is for him and some friends, he is open about that and I agree he should use as much "cutting edge" stuff as he wants - it is his project.
However I am also a shareware game developer and I have to look at compatability first then bells and whistles later. Which is why I stick to DX8 and FFP (and not shaders), and a similar thread to this was seen recently. Different devs , different targets. As long as irrlicht can provide for both those markets then it is good
I have a contigency (test) against this with an additonal call I've added to irrlicht - driver->isOpenGlHardware() - if it is false it will give the user a warning and quit rather than just go ahead and use the "useless" OGL software mode.
Of course (on windows) I test for DX8 first and would always recommend this on Windows at this point in time (for irrlicht).
GFXstyler is correct about not having to care because it is for him and some friends, he is open about that and I agree he should use as much "cutting edge" stuff as he wants - it is his project.
However I am also a shareware game developer and I have to look at compatability first then bells and whistles later. Which is why I stick to DX8 and FFP (and not shaders), and a similar thread to this was seen recently. Different devs , different targets. As long as irrlicht can provide for both those markets then it is good
Hang on a minute. Why is MacOS a better choice to port to than Linux or .NET? .NET is Windows only, but allows access from many languages (note that I dislike .NET and I don't use it, but I do see its value). Linux is widely used, is free, and is little endian, so it's a much easier port than Mac. I have no objection to a Mac port (and btw the Lightfeather has MAC support), but I fail to see why it would be more important than other platforms. I do agree with you about the software rendering though.Anonymous wrote:I was saying in the LONG RUN (ie long term usefulness and life of the engine) a MAC port would be a better place to spend his energy that on things like software rendering, .NET and Linux.
You do a lot of programming? Really? I try to get some in, but the debugging keeps me pretty busy.
Crucible of Stars
Crucible of Stars
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Guest
That is because you obviously have non-commercial viability in mind. I don't really want to get dragged into that discussion here - but just bear in mind that LINUX users generaly do not want to BUY shareware.
PC (WINDOWS) Users (not hardcore HL2 types) DO buy shareware.
Mac users DEFINATLEY buy shareware because they are game starved.
Email Jason@popcap (made millions of $$$) or Anyone at a big portal or respectable money making indie dev and they will tell you they have already branched out into mac ports or intend to because it is a great market to sell to (mainly because Retail are ignoring them).
Linux users on the other hand are almost primarily more techy people who would never consider "Buying" games they thing of as basic or cheap versions of the latest retail games.
Different targets - different markets - different goals.
I am not saying it is more important for all of us current irrlicht users - as I am sure there are many happy linux users, what I am saying is for developers who continually use technology to make sell-able games will take irrlicht more seriously if they know they can make a mac port - linux barely figures in it for them because few people buy (and we are talking a massive ratio difference here).
Check out the software on Apple.com featured d/l games. Many of these games are from successful indie game studios, some of them but very few, also make games for linux because linux users just don't but "casual" games or "semi-core" games.
That is why a MAC port is now in everything from Ogre, Lightfeather (lacking DX for optimal Windows usage so no good), blitzmax etc. There is only irrlicht left now and if Niko is serious about future life of his engine he will want a mac port at some stage.
Now - the reason I said "more important than .net" is not because I think he shouldn't make .net version but because he is spending ages trying to improve .net version which is a proprietry windows technology and a dead end for his market (apart from people who only want to use .net to develop for windows). Everything you can do in .net can be done (and then some) in straight C++ so in effect he is duplicating his effort for a few users who prefer C#, Managed C++, VB or whatever. The end result is still an .exe for windows. This will not attract the same people as it would if they could also use virtually the same irrlicht code to make a MAC version of their game. It is just so much more desirable outside of the PC tech savvy people who are making win only games with the latest technology.
And again - A mac port should come later, I didn't say drop linux and .net - I am just saying that if he is so keen to add NEW stuff then a mac port would be far more useful (and if you are selling games then trust me it WOULD) than spending the same effort/time on linux and .net.
Hey if he don't do a mac port I can use ogre so no problem to me personally I just would prefer to keep the same code base thats all
PC (WINDOWS) Users (not hardcore HL2 types) DO buy shareware.
Mac users DEFINATLEY buy shareware because they are game starved.
Email Jason@popcap (made millions of $$$) or Anyone at a big portal or respectable money making indie dev and they will tell you they have already branched out into mac ports or intend to because it is a great market to sell to (mainly because Retail are ignoring them).
Linux users on the other hand are almost primarily more techy people who would never consider "Buying" games they thing of as basic or cheap versions of the latest retail games.
Different targets - different markets - different goals.
I am not saying it is more important for all of us current irrlicht users - as I am sure there are many happy linux users, what I am saying is for developers who continually use technology to make sell-able games will take irrlicht more seriously if they know they can make a mac port - linux barely figures in it for them because few people buy (and we are talking a massive ratio difference here).
Check out the software on Apple.com featured d/l games. Many of these games are from successful indie game studios, some of them but very few, also make games for linux because linux users just don't but "casual" games or "semi-core" games.
That is why a MAC port is now in everything from Ogre, Lightfeather (lacking DX for optimal Windows usage so no good), blitzmax etc. There is only irrlicht left now and if Niko is serious about future life of his engine he will want a mac port at some stage.
Now - the reason I said "more important than .net" is not because I think he shouldn't make .net version but because he is spending ages trying to improve .net version which is a proprietry windows technology and a dead end for his market (apart from people who only want to use .net to develop for windows). Everything you can do in .net can be done (and then some) in straight C++ so in effect he is duplicating his effort for a few users who prefer C#, Managed C++, VB or whatever. The end result is still an .exe for windows. This will not attract the same people as it would if they could also use virtually the same irrlicht code to make a MAC version of their game. It is just so much more desirable outside of the PC tech savvy people who are making win only games with the latest technology.
And again - A mac port should come later, I didn't say drop linux and .net - I am just saying that if he is so keen to add NEW stuff then a mac port would be far more useful (and if you are selling games then trust me it WOULD) than spending the same effort/time on linux and .net.
Hey if he don't do a mac port I can use ogre so no problem to me personally I just would prefer to keep the same code base thats all
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Eternl Knight
- Posts: 313
- Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2005 5:01 am
Well, personally - I think Nico should do whatever he wants. Unless some of the people complaining about things are actually paying him for something - they're getting something for nothing as it is. so I say "Deal with it".
Wading into the Linux vs Mac OSX vs Windows debate - here's my opinon on things...
Firstly, Guest (whoever he/she is) has hit the nail on the head RE: Mac OSX machines in regards to indie games and their market. Mac users are generally ignored when it comes to games and as such, they tend to buy games that might be ignored by PC gamers. This (for a small game developer) is a good market to get into.
As for Linux users not being interested in buying games - I am curious where you got you data for this. Yes, the Linux market is not as big as the Mac OSX one, but there is still a decent market there that can be exploited. Also, Linux boxes are cheaper than Macs (though due to Microsoft bundling - not always cheaper than windows for the general user). This makes it a viable OS for the "content development" &/or servers of a game. To use an interesting example - there is a project which uses the Nebula Device engine in conjunction with Erlang for the running of a virtual world. This could be done with Irrlicht without the need for "renderering" the scene (Nebula simply doesn't instantiate the graphics service).
.NET I believe is a dead-end for anything but Windows development. The Mono project has been deemed a "threat" by Microsoft, so expect it to suffer the same fate as other threats - Netscape, WordPerfect, etc are a shadow of their former glory due to the tactics MS used against them. This is not "conspiracy" stuff, but documented fact determined by a court of law - so spare me the "You hate M$" crap. I get sick of that very quickly.
What do I think Nico "should" do? Anything he damn well pleases. Irrlicht is his baby and as such his priorities come before anything any of us can think up. I "wish" he would focus more on the Mac OSX & Linux ports (& hence OpenGL support) but I am not going to rant & wail if he doesn't. In the event that he completely ignores those two platforms (& the underlying OpenGL API) - there is a solid base from which I can work on it myself. Benefits of open-source ladies and gentlemen
--EK
Wading into the Linux vs Mac OSX vs Windows debate - here's my opinon on things...
Firstly, Guest (whoever he/she is) has hit the nail on the head RE: Mac OSX machines in regards to indie games and their market. Mac users are generally ignored when it comes to games and as such, they tend to buy games that might be ignored by PC gamers. This (for a small game developer) is a good market to get into.
As for Linux users not being interested in buying games - I am curious where you got you data for this. Yes, the Linux market is not as big as the Mac OSX one, but there is still a decent market there that can be exploited. Also, Linux boxes are cheaper than Macs (though due to Microsoft bundling - not always cheaper than windows for the general user). This makes it a viable OS for the "content development" &/or servers of a game. To use an interesting example - there is a project which uses the Nebula Device engine in conjunction with Erlang for the running of a virtual world. This could be done with Irrlicht without the need for "renderering" the scene (Nebula simply doesn't instantiate the graphics service).
.NET I believe is a dead-end for anything but Windows development. The Mono project has been deemed a "threat" by Microsoft, so expect it to suffer the same fate as other threats - Netscape, WordPerfect, etc are a shadow of their former glory due to the tactics MS used against them. This is not "conspiracy" stuff, but documented fact determined by a court of law - so spare me the "You hate M$" crap. I get sick of that very quickly.
What do I think Nico "should" do? Anything he damn well pleases. Irrlicht is his baby and as such his priorities come before anything any of us can think up. I "wish" he would focus more on the Mac OSX & Linux ports (& hence OpenGL support) but I am not going to rant & wail if he doesn't. In the event that he completely ignores those two platforms (& the underlying OpenGL API) - there is a solid base from which I can work on it myself. Benefits of open-source ladies and gentlemen
--EK
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Guest
Thanks for agreeing with some of my points - but also you missed that I for one am NOT demanding anything of Niko (don't know how many times I can say that). And even GfxStyler is happy with 12 for now (again not demanding anything).
We are ALL aware it is Nikos "baby" and it is "free" but what is the point of having a forum if we can not suggest improvements or show where the users really could do with features / fixes?
I am sure Niko doesn't mind reading what people would like / require (it has been going on since the first release!) so it should not be seen as whining or demanding at all - just gentle requests and possibly information as to why we request things. That and to highlight bug fixes.
I doubt any serious irrlicht user is about to turn around and shout at Niko about any missing feature or bug - we respect him for his work too much. We can however discuss where improvements can be made and it is NOT demands or whining
We are ALL aware it is Nikos "baby" and it is "free" but what is the point of having a forum if we can not suggest improvements or show where the users really could do with features / fixes?
I am sure Niko doesn't mind reading what people would like / require (it has been going on since the first release!) so it should not be seen as whining or demanding at all - just gentle requests and possibly information as to why we request things. That and to highlight bug fixes.
I doubt any serious irrlicht user is about to turn around and shout at Niko about any missing feature or bug - we respect him for his work too much. We can however discuss where improvements can be made and it is NOT demands or whining
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Guest
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Joe_Oliveri
- Posts: 448
- Joined: Tue Oct 05, 2004 3:24 am
- Location: Boston, MA
I agree demanding things from Niko will not get us anything, like a said in post before this and many others. Niko is one man, and he is doing a pretty damn good job on his own. Niko is so kind to let us use this great tool to aid our development free of charge. We should all be commanded around by Niko not the other way around.
Irrlicht Moderator || Game Designer
Learn the basics at </dream.in.code>
Learn the basics at </dream.in.code>
Terrains still display Okay (OpenGL). However I have to scale the terrain by a factor of 4. This generates 16 times more triangles. Consequently the framerate drops by over 50%. This is a real showstopper for me!Maize wrote:So is anyone else having problems in the terrain demo with the terrain dissapearing and then coming back depending on where you look?