bsp legal issues

JaredPrince · Post by **JaredPrince** » Fri Feb 20, 2004 4:09 am

I've been thinking of using Irrlicht for a while to make a FPS, mainly attracted by its abilty to load Quake3 BSP files. But it now occurs to me that the compilers needed to make the BSP file (both for the bsp itself and the lightmaps) cannot be used without a license from ID software, which I'm guessing wouldn't be cheap. Does anyone know a solution to this problem?

keless · Post by **keless** » Fri Feb 20, 2004 4:54 am

Ignore it.

If you dont currently have a contract with a distributor and a publisher, and if you're not already a part of a professional Indie game studio-- you're honestly not going to get to the point where you have to worry about that. Period.

thesmileman · Post by **thesmileman** » Fri Feb 20, 2004 4:57 am

Ummm not sure exactly what your are talking about but there are bsp exporters for many different graphics packages such as Max Maya GMax that are free of charge.

You can also use 3ds, obj, and .x models which there are also exporters for from many graphcis programs so I do not think that you are going to have a problem.

JaredPrince · Post by **JaredPrince** » Fri Feb 20, 2004 5:59 am

keless wrote:Ignore it.

If you dont currently have a contract with a distributor and a publisher, and if you're not already a part of a professional Indie game studio-- you're honestly not going to get to the point where you have to worry about that. Period.

I'm talking specifically about if you intend to publish a proffessional game, in which case you are trying to get to the point where you DO have to worry about that. If no one notices your program, fine, but then whats the point? On the other hand, it would suck being a victim of your own success, sued just as you start to get some sales.

Legally it would seem that lightmapped Quake 3 BSP files are out if you want to make a commercial game, unless you get the licenses.

Can Irrlicht load other kinds of lightmapped world geometry?

keless · Post by **keless** » Fri Feb 20, 2004 6:13 am

if you intend to publish a professional game, you will tell your producer you need a liscense for the Q3 BSP file format, and he will get it for you. I say this from experience (I skipped the part where you have to have a meeting with him to convince him its worth the money, then have a meeting with the accountant to convince HIM that its worth the money).

Anyhow, yes, you do need to get licenses. But, once again, a professional project is already getting liscenses for production, distribution, brand name (if you're making a movie-to-game), etc. etc. Its nothing you'd have to worry about.

Miwa · Post by **Miwa** » Fri Feb 20, 2004 6:33 am

That or write your own tools to generate the bsp's.

Of course, once you figure out how long that will take, and what it will cost, you'll just license the stuff from id.

JaredPrince · Post by **JaredPrince** » Mon Feb 23, 2004 12:35 pm

I did some searching and have found a freeware compiler for quake3 map files.

http://map3bspc.sourceforge.net/

I got it to compile a small map and produce a bsp. Unfortunately it was not compatible with Q3 (something to do with worldspawn not being the first entity) but it might work in Irrlicht. Assuming it works (now or at a later release) all that is needed is something to make the lightmaps.

There was also this forum on the legality of using Q3 tools for non-Q3 projects which may be of interest.

http://www.quakesrc.org/forum/viewtopic ... ight=q2map

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Mon Feb 23, 2004 3:57 pm

or use Halflife 1 BSPs...though don't know if irllitch loads them, too,

As the ZHLT tools, lets you compile the GTK Radiant or Hammer map, into a halflife bsp. This way is ompletely free, as the compiler by itself..is free!

I am not experienced with this. I just know this is the way to do bsps without license probelms.

The fact is map editors like Quake Army Knife, Gtk Radiant, etc, are told to be really advanced and often in some aspects quicker to build a level than other shareware alternatives...and for free

For me, if they build the lightmap and can be compiled later on a HL BSP, hey that's a really good thing... But I don't know if those free editors can generate the lights...it'd rock if so. You see, I have no experience. Is just a little internet research I did.

Some links about this:

the zhlt tools (to compile map into halflife BSP ) :
http://collective.valve-erc.com/index.php?go=mhlt

several tools for stuff related.
http://countermap.counter-strike.net/Ne ... ex.php?p=2

The Hammer editor. Halflife map editor.
http://collective.valve-erc.com/index.php?go=hammer

I think this link, though is called like the old only quake one, also hosts the new GTK radiant, which also supports halflife maps you could export and then compile to bsp with the zhlt compiler.
http://www.qeradiant.com

I don't know , I thing this is something also related with hl maps.
http://www.planetquake.com/tread/

more tools about it.
http://www.aequorea.com/half-life-maps/ ... ools.shtml

The Quark Army knife, if I remember well.Really good, looking the features tuts, and screens. I think it also supports Halflife, don't know if you need to install an addon or something.
http://dynamic.gamespy.com/quark/

This one also make maps, buit is more a height field terrain generator (generates whatever the terrain from a greyscale bitmap, maybe QUITE useful fro the rpg irlitch games...) Agian, maybe you can pick the map and compile as HL BSP, but I don't know if could be done with this one.

http://tarot.telefragged.com/gensurf/

Ultimate unwrap can load both types of BSPs, even quake 1, 2 or 3. (besides loading md2 and md3 (static only , though exports animated if imported as directx8 into Ultimate)) . This came a bit after lightmap channel(and uv channel 2, maybe it's the same) internally supported in Ultimate.(a bit after opengl bumps and reflections...)

I hope some of this is of any help...

Mercior · Post by **Mercior** » Tue Feb 24, 2004 1:38 am

Unfortunately loading half life BSP's causes irrlicht to crash

Perhaps a feature for niko to work on

deps · Post by **deps** » Tue Feb 24, 2004 2:45 am

Halflife BSP is from an older version of BSP, Irrlicht uses the Quake3 ones, and iirc Half life was based on Quake1. (Could be Quake2)

voltare · Post by **voltare** » Fri Mar 12, 2004 1:36 am

It sounds like I'm harping here....but I'm going to try this combination: Nem's terrain generator to make a .map, then import it into a Reality factory editor to create .bsp......then see if irrlicht can do anything with it.........

guest32 · Post by **guest32** » Fri Mar 12, 2004 8:29 am

the only way 100% free I know :

quark to create the map (gtk radiant has legal issues for comercial projects, check the "lega" section in the site)

a free quake3 map compiler to generate the bsp.

shaderlab.com

i one, the other has been mentioned in this thread (but is very wip yet)

and a map editor +compiler , free, gectic or something like that.

Make a search in this forums...

fretnoize · Post by **fretnoize** » Fri Mar 19, 2004 6:39 am

because there still seems to be some confusion, hopefully this will help clear it up:

You can't use radiant or q3map2 commercially, and you can't use the quake 2 stuff commecially, just because its GPL doesn't mean its free to make a profit from, Id still lisences quake 2 technology and i believe quake 1, just a lot cheaper than 3.

i'll refer you to the thread i started on the q3map2 support forum

http://www.splashdamage.com/index.php?n ... pic&t=6649

and to clarify shaderlab.com is where q3map2 resides...

sorry to be the barer of bad news... but keep in mind this doesn't mean you can't USE these tools, it just means you CAN'T SELL what you make with them. if you're dead set on trying to make games for money, one method you could think about is to make a non-comercial demo of your game, make sure its great, and see if you can get some publisher interest, if nothing comes from it, you and your team will have some good stuff for your resumes/portfolios, which will help with another method, applying at companies. Yes, its hard to break into the industry, keep trying, and also consider a testing job to get your foot in the door.

sorry i've been away from the forums, been working... yikes .6 is out and i haven't even used .5 yet... rock on Niko

-Dave

November235 · Post by **November235** » Fri Mar 19, 2004 8:19 am

Regardless of whether it's legal or not to sell games using them (I'm still in the personal interest stage), I'm working on modifying irrlicht to load HL BSPs.

guest39 · Post by **guest39** » Fri Mar 19, 2004 9:59 am

hmm...What i have read in all internet is that the formats are free, even for comercial. That is, md2, md3, bsp....

What is not free is ID tools... But as far as you don't use ID tools, you are safe.

and Ydnar's compiler starts saying this :

"DISCLAIMER

THIS IS NOT AN ID SOFTWARE PRODUCT. DO NOT ASK THEM FOR HELP. SEE BELOW FOR
LINKS TO RELEVANT RESOURCES. IT HAS BEEN TESTED BY HUNDREDS OF MAPPERS ON
MAPS FOR SEVERAL GAMES, COMMERCIAL AND NON COMMERCIAL."

Anyway, again, if this map editor and compiler, can do the job, and is not based in id tools, but only use the formats, it'd be safe to... :

http://getic.njoydeco.com/

And as last resource, you could just use QUARK, which stated by the author, is perfectly usable for any comercial project, without paying a coin, well, then you could try an make a parser of the *.map file exported, instead of the compiled BSP one. IMHO.

Though, I think it worth it to ensure really Ydnar's compiler can't be used for comercial games, as is very good. If not, then the getic editor and compiler sure worth a try, previous dig about the license issues with ID.

And anyway...the main advantage I see on using one of those editors is collisions, lightmaps. As lightmaps is not easy to do with free tools.

but indeed, as modellling, I rather prefer a full modeller.
And with that you would not depend in any id stuff, just do your own mesh export as x and use fsrad or lume tools to generate the lightmap.
The collisions...sure there's a workaround.
I would not give up though, about available editors and compilers before really knowing I can't use them.

I may be wrong, though, but I have not seen any post from Ydnar in that license thread...

Also, I see many packages like darkbasic pro, gamestudio, and some other poorer ones, adding happily bsp and md2 formats...surely using their home made routines...but using the formats...I don't know, I'm reading everywhere the formats themselves are totally free...

also, as recent poster is saying is writting an hl bsp loader for irrlitch, you could use quark to create the map and all stuff, and the free zhlt tools to compile as a halflife bsp. That is massively said is the free way of outputting a bsp, so that should be safe.

My point is, having an editor solve you lightmaps, collisions, etc, and allowing easy editing of scenery (less featured in mesh geometry generation, but also less complex than a modelling package,specially for a coder) worth a bit of more research....I think on of the options mentioned here should make a path to create comercial games using Quark, yet being "safe".