[Help Wanted] "The First King" - FPS game. PRE-ALP

[lostanimator]

Just been in their site, well I haven´t tried the tools, but couldn´t see anything in their features that you can´t do with the standard tools in max, (sure Maya and SoftImage have similar things, still don´t know about Blender).

Maybe I should take screens so when I get in trouble I can show you the mesh modifiers involved, I´ve done the process several times for training with different figures, and some 2000-10000 polygons with both subdivision and nurbs, and textures with deeppaint and max 4 a while ago, and the unwrap tools of recent max.

I assume you can get smoothed shapes with subdivision techniques, but I meant it´s difficult to get natural transition planes with very few faces (joints tend to show excentric vertex you need to refine, etc.)

Thanks for the details, I´ll have a look at some lightwave tutorials, to get an idea of the relative modules in max, so I don´t miss any phase vermeer mentioned.

For what I´ve seen of the tuts referenced somewhere back in this post, normal mapping consists in the generation of a map that includes the bump channel, plus two more color channels for... side lighting? If usual bump maps, when combined with good color maps, already mean good results, expectations must to be high. I'm looking forward to try it.

Holidays next week, so I'll post an update when we're back

[JP]

Normal maps are simply normals embedded into the texture so each pixel has an RGB value which corresponds to the XYZ vector describing the normal at that point on the model (using the same texture coordinates as the diffuse texture). So then when you're running the normal mapping pixel shader, for each pixel you just read the required normal from the normal map texture with the interpolated texture coordinated of that pixel.

[vermeer]

Much a lot of questions (interesting ones, btw) asked here. Right now I have some duty to attend, but some hours later I will reply properly. But a bit in advance:


- Imo, and while I deeply love that tools like Blender and Wings do exist and keep evolving, if you have a license of Max 2008, heck, man, go for it. The power of that thing is endless , I have used it for rigging adn animation, render, lightmaps...and is really a tool for games (among other things) ...during years been my tool at jobs.

-The drawing is *much* better. Hmmm...yep, not neededly the pectorals where incorrect, a kind of guy with that skeleton and type of anatomy could have them that way... but imho are better now... (btw, just to continue being the pain in the..(now that I check you have the best attitude an artist can have in relation to comments) ...the muscles of the neck should be oriented to a central point in the center of the middle axe, middle of the two clavicles, I mean, the starting point of then, is almost from one point, they don't start that separated from the chest...(o sea, que empiezan desde la concavidad en medio de las dos clavículas, aunque no del todo desde el mismo punto) )

[ finally typing more than I should in this moment, lol.Will add another post later for just completing. ]

- Lightwave is a swiss army knife in modelling. If you are quite good at it already, you don't need anything else. There's a tendency in which I am too, of artists having their fav modeler , and then use the integration and animation package tool for the rest... I don't think Max is nor even close in quality as a modeler compared to Lightwave, Silo, probably Modo. (and in my very personal opinion, Wings3d in the case of organic modeling)
It may be underpowered in exporting to game formats, but this is as max has been such a dominant tool in games and mods, more than Maya, and many users made scripts, etc. Maya these days count with loads of exporters, tho, but I can think on several formats where Max has more options, or where even Maya does not count on any. Tho, in console game companies, some of the biggest ones, is all, but all, Maya, for it's superior state in relation with mel scripting possibilities and what it all means, because is a probably superior animation tool , because is multiplatform....Still, I really dislike its interface, had to use in some company. But I am one of those that can't trash a tool because I don't *feel* right in it. Is my problem, not tool's prob.

Blender is becoming extremely powerful, but does -not- catch Max or Maya yet. If you count on Max 2008 license, then, heck. BUT...If you count on it...just for now, or is from another guy, etc, etc, etc...and if you are planning to do other stuff, or think of making more art as personal projects, and wont count for that on thelicense...then: Blender. If you make this project partly cause wanna get into a game company job at some time, don't loose time and go with max/Maya (best idea these days is probably be expert in one, but have good knowledge of the other) .But also, hehe, think well about it, I'm not the only one who ended almost hating games for ever after the very hard experience in several places...I guessed the only way to enjoy making games in majority of companies, is...well, not being there. But doing your games as hobby.

You can do perfectly with polygons very smooth result. I'll talk bout this more later, and about the other matters, I am not sure if am really answering some of the important ones.

(btw, amazed to see the other day a book bout animation in blender, in nice expensive format, in a big store, where we rarely get any book of 3d more than a bad Max manual... But I was having a look, and teaches some of the methods I don't agree with: They are good, but I prefer some other more direct ways I use... The book looks like to be quite a jewell, tho, but not for me buying. Again, if there's no more thing in the horizon, and for you is teh same choosing one than another, I'd go for Max. Animating and doing anything (except modeling, in my very arguable opinion) is just a joy, endless power. Think of something, it can already do it. The animation system is very fast once you learn it. )

Polyboost is nothing spectacular...i was reveiwing the other day all features...LOL! all are Mirai/Wings ones! And what is more, those 2 count on *many* more...Still, a possible good aproach for those wanting to also model in max...am not that inclined... Still love it's CAT and CS plugins, and its main animation tools...

More later.

[vermeer]

I assume you can get smoothed shapes with subdivision techniques, but I meant it´s difficult to get natural transition planes with very few faces (joints tend to show excentric vertex you need to refine, etc.)

just to be sure: With subdivisions, I don't mean subdivide, but the general techniques used to get done a hi res model: basically my low cage for a hi res, gets to be similar to th elow res, but i modify the low res at certain polygon budget to be an efficient real time 3d mesh... Maybe subdivs is not the term, but modeling with edgeloops, and many Mirai like powerful selections and modeling commands. very similar to what polyboost, (and some other, there used to by Orion Flame, and many free scripts at scriptspot.com ) adds to Max's modeling.

The key there is to have a good control on smoothing normals, and where you put the creases, and how you play with angles of those very few faces, so to visually achieve a veru close to hi res "roundness" . This is only learnt while modeling.

Any tool is good for the whole task, but Max imho is the overall safest shot.

one only thing, is...the export...I could succesfully export with panda free x exporters, but I am told there are issues with latests max, and the only available free b3d exporter. A real pitty.
While in Blender is already working the animated characters export, not yet tho the lightmapped level export, but hey. (you can do levels with a collection of tools, formats or pipelines)

I´ve modelled both with nurbs and polygons,

Hum...but...have you modeled before a character for a game, real time 3d game? because the thing is the control of the smoothing (i don't mean smoothing as adding more faces, not a subdivision, is simply how you control the smoothing normals) is an art by itself...Which is learnt by the practice. Nurbs can be used, but for hi details in the zbrush way, bumps, wrinkles, neither nurbs will help. If you go for making a hi res from start, and are going to make the lower version retopolgying later, painting the wires over an sculpted some million polies mesh, then go ahead with whatever you are more confortable. I mean that modelling the 2000 - 5000 mesh directly, for me would be not practical, but a polies based method.

but I know it´s difficult to achieve good results with not many triangles.

I'd strongly would recommend to model with quads (edit poly modifier in max, for example) not tris. Way better for workflow, cleaner, etc. And if you use Wings, Mirai, or Silo, etc, better N-gons. Much more creative freedom in the process, more flexible.

At the end of the day, depends on your motivations....Want to use sth you're gonna use in a game company as part of staff? max or maya...are confortable with LW and feel its rigging and export are good enough, then go for it if the things against it are small enough... Want a free tool that seems to have a long life, and that is in its best moment of evolution now, with plenty of exporters around for games, and with strong enphasis on evolving the gaming features right now, and with b3d export, go for blender (but expect it to be as powerful as the others. Pretty capable,tho. Learning curve not easy, coming from other packages. I know is not easy to transfer that knowledge to max in a future, for example. UI is so different. If you don't mind tho...I've choosed Bledner for many reasons, for personal projects. (animation only) )

I'm aware of the dorsal being a pain in the ass when weighting, so that "is possible" could be a little more specific... if you wish

The tweaking of weights in that area to make human like bendings, is tricky. For the shape you gave, however you position should joint, is gonna give probs when rotating in very different poses.besides, in the way it all will affect the skin movement...Butis not impossible, and in least case, you may use just extra helper bones and some complex contsraints (doable in Blender...btw, with complex rigs, blender in my tests goes slower than Max, for example, with same hardware...and good graphic card and good machine, is expected to kill this probs, tho.But if you can, don't go crazy with scene features or number of bones and constraints. I mean, all what you need, but don't add bones crazily. As I said, tho, it can eat an amazing amount of polygons. Seems ik solving and rigs eat more in blender... )

A large number of artists model with polies based techniques, not nurbs, and very rarely they subdivide for making the low pol version. For the hi res, you are free to go how you prefer...I just love subdiv, edgelooping typical methods. Look at these animated gifs (click on "animated gifs" at left menu)...is part of th etechniques and ways which I am refering too, but there are many more tricks, commands, methods, and the list keeps growing in the several top modelers. To me, Wings, Silo, Modo, are some of the best.
Consider you can model in whatever and animate in other tool: I have done this allways, with some formats knowledge, no issue.

[dlangdev]

hey fellas,

i just downloaded gile[s] and will start playing around with it.

i'm done studying and learning with the basic tools and will now expand a little bit to include gile[s] in my toolbox, things are moving forward over here.

[vermeer]

I have it since long, I have some average knowledge about it, not too deep tho, if want to ask sth, maybe I know it or..not. The b3d export works, but I dislike that all exports include your real name from being a registrated user...

[dlangdev]

wa-hooo!

finally got gile[s] added to my workflow. basically, it's like this...

i model and uv map in blender....

textures are made in photoshop.



then light it in gile[s]



then assemble it in a scene using irredit...



use the sample scene loader code to walk in the world.

and lastly, optimize the scene by adding shaders.

now, my toolset is complete.

[christianclavet]

Hi dlangdev . You've done about the same steps as I've done for my little demo.

-Used Lightwave to model,
-convert the meshes in 3DS,
-import it in Gile[s], create the Lightmaps,
-export it as B3D in IRRedit
-Create the loading scene code with collision (with the help of Vitek)

This could be good to create a pipeline for level design, but for ANIMATED CHARACTERS, I think it another thing.

For texturing, I try to use a specific polygon surface to apply it decals, for other irregular surfaces, I use seamless textures.

Vermeer. I think David can model in 3DS and Blender. For my part, I can model only in Lightwave at the moment (tryied to model in 3DS, but now I'm still at the beginning). Thanks for the hints about the poly placement on the low level mesh. I've read about this, but never really produced a ingame character (Done some "cartoon" character to practice but theses where not designed to be ingame characters). I'm used to model using subdivision surfaces. But I'll let work David, on the characters. From what he showed us so far, he's more than able to create something great. If I have more time, I'll try to start modeling for the level buildings and tunnels. I have so much work to do on the camera rig now...

[dlangdev]

yep, that workflow is for level design only. this workflow is based on my short experience with setting up levels. i think most of the requirements are covered nicely by this workflow and will pretty much fit with any game worlds, though.

actor animation is definitely a different set of requirements, i'm not there yet in terms of figuring out what tools will cover the workflow. that will surely come later as i make more levels in a variety of game worlds.

so far, i'm a happy camper setting-up levels. this alone will probably take months to even cover the entire experience.

i'll be playing around with sceneries similar to the ones found in this frecle thread...

http://www.frecle.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=757

...they look pretty good. though i noticed some textures showed magnification artifacts. borrowing some of the techniques to build a sample scene that will start soon, i'm trying to model the elementary school i went to, that's my first formal project that will be added to my portfolio and also be submitted to a conference gallery later this year. and it's not going to be a game, yet. the camera will be controlled by a script to keep the simulation running, this way the demo program can show the entire scene without anyone on the keyboard.

[dlangdev]

by the way, i'm exporting to b3d from gile[s]. irredit has no problems with that file format, though.

with that, i'm going to go ahead and make me some very nice looking textures shown below is one example i've just made.



let me know if you need textures, i can make one for your project.

[christianclavet]

Hi, All!

Made some progress with my camera rigs...
The current rig is working like a FPS Camera with those features:

- Walk
- Run
- Crouch
- Jump

The movement can be defined for each of theses action. Also, from a demo that JP showed me, I created a body walk simulation on the up/down movement when the rig is moving. (With a defined boolean to activate/deactivate it)

To better show it look at this video on youtube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBPKfDJ9ZJc

I updated the source SVN also on the sourceforge site.
For the textures, we're not yet fully started on the modeling. For the moment no textures are needed until we complete some basic models.

[JP]

Cool! Looks good!

At first i thought the walk simulation was a bit too much but that's for running isn't it? When you then turn around and walk back slower it's much better and then when you see it running again it looks pretty good.

I was playing Clive Barker's Jerico yesterday and it had some nice features like this, such as when you're standing still the camera moves around slightly like your head might, looking from side to side every so slightly. It was a very nice effect but it may have not been helping the fact that the game made me very queasy, much like Half-Life 2 games do as well...

But that could be a cool extra feature you could add in and turn on/off like the walk sim.

[christianclavet]

HI. JP.

Yes, it was running. (I set the default as running, SHIFT for walking)

I will have to solve first the problem with the angle of the camera upvector for the tilt.

I have still to base the Y angle and calculate where the tilt will occur.
This is a basic trig problem (poor me), still it elude me a little.

Lets say I want to tilt 45 degree, and my player is 23 degree on the Y. I will have to take in account this 23 degree on the Y axis before rotating (I will probably to rotate on both X and Z axis)

I would like to use tilt when strafing right or left, could also create a function to rotate it also when rotating the view (will have to create a function to account for velocity so it work)

I think I have also a problem with the TARGET when the camera is parented to the rig (empty nodes/null objects) I had some weird behavior. I will have to investigate why it's doing that. In the current rig, the empty nodes (null objects) are used as manipulator for the Y axis of the camera, and still not used as pivot as I would like.

[dejai]

Christian,
I have seen the video with the new walking system and though realistic it seems slightly over dramatized. Possibly reducing the boobing and making the effect slower for walking. If you have ever played Gears of war, you will see the camera has taken into account speed, if the player is full out sprinting the camera bobbles like it did in yours, but if they are jogging it only has a very slight effect. Anyway looks great keep up the good work! Ill add you on youtube.

P.S
The player should not have to move the crosshair from the middle of the screen, if running it should stay on the target, with a very slight movement.. Recoil can always compensate for this and make it look just as realistic. Have a look at a gameplay video of Team Fortress 2 for a simple fps.

Anyway I think what your doings great keep it up.

[christianclavet]

Hi, Dejai

I would certainly hope that I could make a rig as good as in Gears Of war (This game is incredible!). It's not there yet.

I can put the amount I need for everything. For a demonstration to show that it's there, I needed to exagerate this. For the final rig, I would surely need some input if everybody like's it. The current revision, account for speed (walk or run will move differently). By default the rig is in running mode.

Other update
I finally found out how to calculate the proper rotation of the camera upvector to make the tilt move.
Now the rig as functions to Tilt the head (like the function we see on other FPS games to see over corners)
And added a faint tilt when strafing.

SOURCEFORGE UPDATE
I updated the first post, there is now a download possible from sourceforge not just the SVN. The demo level is there, the binary with the current FIRST-KING, and the source.

The current source and binary reflect the last build from today.
Get it there to test this camera rig on your own:
https://sourceforge.net/project/platfor ... tform=6172
Just remember that the camera rig is far from being completed and there much code cleanup and functionnalities to add.
Most of the code for the new camera rig is inside RIGGEDCAMERA.H