iZigoo - Open 3D Internet project

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Midnight
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Location: Wonderland

Post by Midnight »

Andreas wrote:He didn't personally flame him!

If you post a project announcement like this you have to expect questions and criticism (not flaming!). :)

After all, what would a forum be usefull for if everybody would just say "whooooaaaaa, great Screenshot..." :wink:
Thank you very much it's good to know I'm not the only sane person on this planet still. maybe sane is harsh.. but you people make me feel like I'm crazy or something.

seriously why is every post I make marked a flame?
this is bs stop it please.

monkey for what its worth I like you too.
I was taking a realistic approach on the subject I never intended nor see any reason why my thread might upset someone.

I make reference to children seriously there are a considerable amount of 14 year olds on this forum and most of them share a common theme of having dreams a hundred times larger then their abilities and need a reality check sometimes. I was there once weren't you?
iZigoo wrote:We plan this project already a long time and the server load will be not too hard. We offer an open solution for the 3D internet and we are
people who have already over 15 years experience in business and IT.

Our world will be like Second Life but as an open solution. The
iZigoo concept is focused on easy use and speed.
For big companys we develope tools to put their informations in this world. Like CMS. Thats a part how we finance the servers and crew,
Its the same concept that many open source projects have.
After reading that I actually have a little confidence in this project why didn't you mention that before?

don't get me wrong I know there are other solutions such as p2p like the skype/kazaa guys are doing with internet tv... ironicly it's called joost (juiced) which is yet another project simular to guice's name my gui editor.. I hate to keep bringing that up but some gave me grief about the name and how it's pronounced. (more flaming accusations) (its like a plague with me sorry)

And for the love of your GOD this is the internet NOTHING is personal.
I don't even know you... lol get over it people seriously.

and would somebody get this monkey off my back?! not you cracks!
no pun intended.
monkeycracks
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Post by monkeycracks »

I make reference to children seriously there are a considerable amount of 14 year olds on this forum and most of them share a common theme of having dreams a hundred times larger then their abilities and need a reality check sometimes. I was there once weren't you?
Hell, I'm 15 and dream realisticly :P
And, I like you too Midnight, teh post just seemed a bit harsh. Probably shouldn't have called it flaming. Realisticly harsh at least.

Anyways, iZigoo, Hope to see some progress soon :)
RapchikProgrammer
Posts: 279
Joined: Fri Dec 24, 2004 6:37 pm

Post by RapchikProgrammer »

Firstly nice work you are doing there izigoo! Best of luck 2 u!

BTW izigoo, instead of an oops post u can edit your post, by clicking on the edit button on the upper right hand of your post!
Midnight
Posts: 1772
Joined: Fri Jul 02, 2004 2:37 pm
Location: Wonderland

Post by Midnight »

@monkey stop it you're forcing me to go off subject.
monkey wrote:And even though it's got nothing to do with the government, they should still die
whoa man theirs a harsh reality for ya..

I say lock the bastards up for life for what they have done.

unfortunatly I CAN'T.. hmm that advice sounds simular somehow.

point is this.. anything can be made to look like anything.
the reason people are so quick to call me a flamer is because its fresh on their minds and it dictates their outlook/perspective on everything they do.

the same way cancer would rule your life.. appearently so do I... I like that anology despite your conformal views.. backoff please.
BlindSide
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Post by BlindSide »

Calm down midnight :roll:

All I can say is dont be discouraged! Keep following your dream and dont be lazy, this will be a tough battle for you!

If you need networking help (particularly if you decide to go with irrNet, but any libs fine), add me to MSN.
iZigoo
Posts: 53
Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2007 1:32 pm

Post by iZigoo »

Here is a new inside screenshot of our online world. The blue room is made for a record label called Future Nomads.
I hope there will be a video online soon.

If you want to meet us, next week is a good time. We are at the CeBit so just leave us a message and we can meet in real life. ;)

Image
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iZigoo - The open 3D internet

iZigoo Homepage
anoki
Posts: 58
Joined: Fri May 05, 2006 8:31 am

Post by anoki »

I think it is very important to have an really open source world like second life .
Maybe in 5 years the most content for the internet will be 3D. It is easy to see that for example Adobe Flash has something like a monopol for animated internet content.
I hope 3D will stay open and free, thats why i like this project.
Midnight
Posts: 1772
Joined: Fri Jul 02, 2004 2:37 pm
Location: Wonderland

Post by Midnight »

BlindSide wrote:Calm down midnight :roll:

All I can say is dont be discouraged! Keep following your dream and dont be lazy, this will be a tough battle for you!

If you need networking help (particularly if you decide to go with irrNet, but any libs fine), add me to MSN.
I am always calm.

I never get discouraged although sometimes frustrated.
I've always lived my dreams.

And no it's not a tough battle for me it's a way of life.

btw whats up blindside... :wink:
rogerborg
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Post by rogerborg »

iZigoo wrote:Here is a new inside screenshot of our online world.
Is it actually "online"?
Please upload candidate patches to the tracker.
Need help now? IRC to #irrlicht on irc.freenode.net
How To Ask Questions The Smart Way
iZigoo
Posts: 53
Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2007 1:32 pm

Post by iZigoo »

Our online world will be online in about 10 month. There will be a lot of alpha and beta testing after the start to make sure everything is stable.
If you are interested in being one of the early testers just follow this thread here at irrlicht or send me a mail to izigoo -at- gmx.net .

There will be also some small tech demos and informations for artists how to build models for iZigoo.
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iZigoo - The open 3D internet

iZigoo Homepage
DarianKnight
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Interesting...

Post by DarianKnight »

I don't post in many forums anymore, but this one definitely caught my eye. iZiGoo 3D Web, you say?

I will apologize in advance for this, I'm not trying to flame, but I actually do have a little over ten years in the field of 3D Internet systems. So this is just advice...

Well, here are a few things that caught my discerning eye about what will more than likely be the Achilles heels of this project -

For starters, the distribution of the content is a fallible solution. Blu-Ray DVDs for preloaded content right off the bat is a double strike. First because you assume everyone on the 3D Internet will have a Blu-Ray drive to read the disc, and secondly because you are also treating the 3D Internet concept like a preloaded and static media environment.

Next in line for my blunt criticism is that in a world of evolving and user generated content (Web 2.0) it seems very strange that one would implement a system of static content design and not something that can be fully live edited within the system and collaboratively.

From what I have seen in these screenshots and also my general understanding of the IrrEdit stuff, I think such are for precompiled environment designs - of course this is a moot point either way, as I could be wrong about this, just a general observation.

While it is a good beginning, my guess such far is that it resembles more like Worlds Player than even closely to Second Life. The prior being that Worlds Player requires the complete world to be downloaded before entry and that the content is created as a static experience as a package - whereas the Second Life approach is a "live edit" system (albeit crude) wherein while in the system the environment itself may be modified on the fly.

I'm not saying that the WorldsPlayer approach is a bad thing, but a 3D Internet it is not. Nor is Second Life.

As for the few people who have immediately discounted such a project due to massive bandwidth requirements, ignore them. Seriously, if you do a little digging into the actual history of Internet Environments you'll come up with "Lessons Learned From Lucasfilm's Habit" wherein they outright spell out that a major requirement for such a system in the future would be a non-centralized media server (decentralization).

So anyone who has it in their brains that the bandwidth requirements would be astronomical for such a project obviously is thinking about a central server setup (much like Second Life and anyone else right now).

Let's call that a hint from an actual veteran ;) As for people working for NASA and now for Linden Labs, this may be true. All that brainpower sitting there at Linden Labs and nobody thought to maybe ... I dunno.. think about a decentralized system for the foundation?

Hence they are hitting a brick wall with their server farm as of recent. That's what happens when a traditional video game programmer (Corey) and a guy from RealMedia (Phil) sit down and take a stab at this 3D Intarweb thing. I've heard both of them present Second Life as well, telling the media that back in 1999 "... we wanted to make a new and creative environment that nobody else has, powered by the very people who use it"

They didn't bother to actually look anything up back then either... seeing as Worlds Inc had spun off another technology in 1995 called Active Worlds which was the predecessor to what Second Life is doing.

I like to see people trying to take an honest stab in this industry. It's a breath of fresh air, personally, but if you really want to make a solid dent - start thinking out of the box to solve these problems.

I'll give you a head start:

1. In World Scripting Engine - LUA Script Integration (ie: Same as SL Scripting)

2. Dynamic Real-time Scene Manipulation (See also Active Worlds for basics)

3. Think bigger than a massive central server. Think Decentralized Content Distribution. (Morningstar and Farmer "Lessons Learned from Lucasfilm's Habitat")

4. Think more complex than a single world or "grid". Think about the entire Universe, seamless. (See also Procedural Textures, Models, CLOD)

5. One last thing to mention - will those models and textures still look good in 10 years? Since you are building the foundation now, expect that the system will be around for twenty or more years down the road. Now, take a moment and think about how to allow the 3D Models, textures and such to scale up and down as systems get better over time.

These are some basics that iZiGoo should be addressing before you even *think* to let it see the light of day as a public release, at least if you are actually serious about this project. Unless you actually want your worlds to look as outdated as Worlds Inc? The last thing they made was around 2001 or 2002 and already it's horribly showing it's age.

So, take it or leave it - your choice. This is in no way meant to be mean or bashing. I simply have a horrible sense of humor and a blunt attitude. Nothing personal, boss.

I do, however think that the Irrlicht Engine is a decent choice for such a project. Kudos for that :)

Hope this has been educational and somewhat enlightening :P I need to get back to work now - Cheers.
BlindSide
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Post by BlindSide »

Sorry I only got halfway through that post, but I liked the idea about the decentralized media. Are you suggesting for example that if someone had their own customized avatar stored on their computer (In a program similar to Second Life for example), that when you approach this someone in the 3D world, their computer will directly stream the contents of their 3D avatar's media to your computer just like a P2P system?

This all sounds very good and well, and I am a big fan of such an approach (As is every enthusiastic and naive mmorpg dev noob) but you are being hypocritical in the sense that you are assuming everyone to have a compatible NAT system. You see a NAT assigns a single IP address to many local computers, and automatically organises packets depending on which request went to whom. A common approach to overcome NAT problems, and to achieve a P2P system as you suggested, is to have a centralised server that the recieving computer would connect to, and then that server will send the appropriate IP and Port to the sending computer so that the never ending NAT parallax will not occur (By that I mean when neither computer knows the others internal address or what port is assigned to it so they have no way of communicating). But even with this centralized server solution, some NAT systems (Quite a bit of them I presume) refuuuse entry to servers that the original computer did not make a request to. This may be due to an outdated forsight in the design or for security purposes. Either way, many routers, mine included (A modern day Wireless G router), will not support this workaround, and therefore data will have to pass through the central server to be recieved, and then you practically have what is a centralized media server.

I am not ruling out the possibility of a solution however, so if you find one please let me know as I will be very interested. My words were not to discourage you of such an approach but to merely inform you of what I have researched into when I had considered it, in the hopes that it will help you along your path to a solution.

Thank You.
iZigoo
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Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2007 1:32 pm

Post by iZigoo »

Hello DarianKnight,

thanks a lot for all your informations in your post.
Thats really great to get advanced informations about building 3d worlds and your background knowledge.
There are many points which are very important for a huge project like ours and i also think that bandwidth and for sure future technologies are very important.

It would be really great to talk to you some more and maybe you want to
join us and make the 3D Web happen.

We send you an PM and talk about more ...

iZigoo
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iZigoo - The open 3D internet

iZigoo Homepage
iZigoo
Posts: 53
Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2007 1:32 pm

Post by iZigoo »

Just one short info about the blueray precaching.
It just means we put big common used data like high quality
textures and models on a blueray to reduce the traffic.

The world will be completly dynamic and only common textures everybody needs like grass, ground, skin, sky ... will be on this disc.

In about 3 years blueray or hd dvd will be the same popular like dvd now. We plan our system for the future so thats why... A dvd or pure online version is also planned.

iZigoo
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iZigoo - The open 3D internet

iZigoo Homepage
Strong99
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Post by Strong99 »

About the DVD/Blueray, you plan in the future you say but in the future we maybe stop using the discs, I think cause its an internet project you can take advancement from it, look at a sort of p2p system to transmit the data instead setting it on a disc. Not everywere in the world they use DVDs now or broadband,
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