Irrlicht Engine

as they had mentioned you should learn the basic of c/c++ first before irrlicht.

i know the basics of c++ have 2 years experience just not used to irrlicht yet

if you have enough experience you should be easily get yourself started with Irrlicht, sirrf and even Raknet by just reading the API doc and some example codes.

bhbtti wrote:wow you know its not cool to criticize someones abilities even though you started where im at before

The f*** is that even supposed to mean? I merely pointed out how I believe learning works. I doubt you'll find many who'll disagree too. It's just the way things are. If you can't work out Irrlicht, forget MMORPG. Actually, if you've never done anything Massive OR Multiplayer, forget MMORPG. You also list 2 CEOs and 1 Co-CEO for a team of 5, asking people to give freely their time with no guarantee of return. Furthermore, I've worked in a company with multiple heads at the helm. It's terrible and chaotic.

I will however commend you on the fact everyone on your team seems to have a useful talent for a small team. You usually find a few parasites with such projects, claiming to be devellopers, HR, team leader or other crap in a team of 4 where all bodies should be pulling talent. So point for that.

But yeah, you've failed terribly on Presentation, Credibility, Reply, etc. and if you think this is just because you are new to the forum or such crap, read the reception to this project announcement : http://irrlicht.sourceforge.net/phpBB2/ ... hp?t=34428

Honestly, the only way I would work on this is if you were paying me for my services. I have bills to pay, and this project will not help me do it.

Not everyone starts out in the same spot; All of us start out inexperienced, but most of us dinosaurs have been around longer than MMOs, so we know better than to jump directly in to one the most complicated and complex genres in the game industry. I've been a developer forever and I've yet to even want to attempt any sort of network game. If you want any help from anyone here, you'll have to know your limits and respect those with more experience than you. We're all willing to teach, but we're all jaded by the number of kids that come in here wanting to make MMOs with no experience, and no drive to teach themselves. I'm not talking about you; I'm just talking about the wave of new developers in general.

I can tell you now, you're project is doomed to fail. Here's why:

- MMO's are *very* complex, you need experienced programmers, artists etc. to make it work. You just can't start work, hope you learn and make it through. You might, but you have better odds getting hit by lightning.

- You have clearly no idea where your game is going. An massive racing game? Have you thought about how that'd work? What is the core mechanic? Just punch the accelerator and go? Would that be fun after playing it for 40 hours?

- Racing means a very low latency to make it work. With an MMO this is quite hard to get that. Same goes for MMOFPS'es. With a tool/server programmer with a whole week's experience... no such luck I'm afraid.

- You have no plan. "Code, release, make money" is not a plan and it doens't work. Do you have any idea which phases an MMO should go throught? At what stage are you now?

- I'm not questioning your programming skills, but if you've got 1.5 years of programming experience, even in C++, you'll have some tough road ahead of you. I have been writing code for the past 10 years, I'm a certified Java Architect (I know how to design an application and infrastructue) and still getting an MMO right is quite a daunting task. I can only concur with @Josie.

- No qualified developer works for free. None. Don't bother asking. The thing is, you'll probably get some 'hobby time' from a schoolboy. A good developer develops full-time and has bills to pay. If he works for free, and something that *does* pay comes along, he's gone.

- You say people will get paid according to the hours they put in. Great, but is your game going to make any money? Since you don't have a plan, no schedule, no game design, odds are you're not going to make any money at all.

- Have you done *any* research for your game? Who is your target audience? What games are they playing now? How much money do they have to spend? Where are they (geographically)? Who are you building this game for and how will you sell the game to them? Is there any competition and what are they doing?

- No offence, but as I check your website, it's poor. If you can't put up a decent looking website with a five man team, even if it's just a placeholder, how are you ever going to create an interesting online world that should keep your players happy and entertained for thousands of hours??

It's not my goal to make you feel bad or anything, but it's clear to me you don't know what you're doing. You're idea of an MMORRG is quite cool, but you need careful design and planning to make it work.

In any case: good luck!

Josie wrote:Not everyone starts out in the same spot; All of us start out inexperienced, but most of us dinosaurs have been around longer than MMOs, so we know better than to jump directly in to one the most complicated and complex genres in the game industry. I've been a developer forever and I've yet to even want to attempt any sort of network game. If you want any help from anyone here, you'll have to know your limits and respect those with more experience than you. We're all willing to teach, but we're all jaded by the number of kids that come in here wanting to make MMOs with no experience, and no drive to teach themselves. I'm not talking about you; I'm just talking about the wave of new developers in general.

I couldn't agree more. Well said.

Someone should create a website about that, collecting all those demotivating hints. Like www.search-coder-for-mmorpg.com or something .

- No qualified developer works for free. None. Don't bother asking. The thing is, you'll probably get some 'hobby time' from a schoolboy. A good developer develops full-time and has bills to pay. If he works for free, and something that *does* pay comes along, he's gone.

I agreed with ariejan on everything but this point. feels like your saying there's no such thing has a "good" hobby programmers. When i know plenty of amateur programmers who became professional developers because of there "hobby time" programming. There is such things has loyal devs. Look at the irrlicht devs there loyal to irrlicht and have a paying job. So this one point i have to disagree with.

Other then that one point i pretty much agree with everything else.

wildrj wrote:

- No qualified developer works for free. None. Don't bother asking. The thing is, you'll probably get some 'hobby time' from a schoolboy. A good developer develops full-time and has bills to pay. If he works for free, and something that *does* pay comes along, he's gone.

I agreed with ariejan on everything but this point. feels like your saying there's no such thing has a "good" hobby programmers. When i know plenty of amateur programmers who became professional developers because of there "hobby time" programming. There is such things has loyal devs. Look at the irrlicht devs there loyal to irrlicht and have a paying job. So this one point i have to disagree with.

Other then that one point i pretty much agree with everything else.

irrlicht devs are 'loyal' to this project because in-fact niko already created the library which is usable and popular at that time. They know by joining the irrlicht team they are going to gain something useful instead of wasting their time.

On the other hand, did the thread starter shown any of his 'game'? Is it even 10% done? Is there any realistic goal and plan?

wildrj wrote:

- No qualified developer works for free. None. Don't bother asking. The thing is, you'll probably get some 'hobby time' from a schoolboy. A good developer develops full-time and has bills to pay. If he works for free, and something that *does* pay comes along, he's gone.

I agreed with ariejan on everything but this point. feels like your saying there's no such thing has a "good" hobby programmers. When i know plenty of amateur programmers who became professional developers because of there "hobby time" programming. There is such things has loyal devs. Look at the irrlicht devs there loyal to irrlicht and have a paying job. So this one point i have to disagree with.

Other then that one point i pretty much agree with everything else.

Don't get me wrong. Good programmers can be pro's or amateurs, just like bad programmers. My point is that with a hobby programmer you don't get the same commitment (most of the time).

When a programmer needs to make choices about how to spend his time (amateur or not), the projects that don't make money go out of the window first.

For example, let's say the programmer wants to do more sports and joins the local soccer team, which practices every monday and wednesday and has a match every other sunday. A paid programmer will not let this interfere with his work or time spend on the project. A free programmer will make quite a different decission.

ariejan wrote:

wildrj wrote:

- No qualified developer works for free. None. Don't bother asking. The thing is, you'll probably get some 'hobby time' from a schoolboy. A good developer develops full-time and has bills to pay. If he works for free, and something that *does* pay comes along, he's gone.

I agreed with ariejan on everything but this point. feels like your saying there's no such thing has a "good" hobby programmers. When i know plenty of amateur programmers who became professional developers because of there "hobby time" programming. There is such things has loyal devs. Look at the irrlicht devs there loyal to irrlicht and have a paying job. So this one point i have to disagree with.

Other then that one point i pretty much agree with everything else.

Don't get me wrong. Good programmers can be pro's or amateurs, just like bad programmers. My point is that with a hobby programmer you don't get the same commitment (most of the time).

When a programmer needs to make choices about how to spend his time (amateur or not), the projects that don't make money go out of the window first.

For example, let's say the programmer wants to do more sports and joins the local soccer team, which practices every monday and wednesday and has a match every other sunday. A paid programmer will not let this interfere with his work or time spend on the project. A free programmer will make quite a different decission.

Agreed, but I'd just like you to know that I am a hobbyist programmer only, I don't consider getting paid for programming a possibility. And I'd like to see anyone call me a unskilled or undedicated programmer =D. But I suppose if I were a professional, I'd have a lot more time to work on projects.

@Josie Being a hobby programmer is not a problem

I wrote up my thoughts on this topic in a blog post.

http://blog.forsakenlabs.com/2009/08/05 ... developer/

Feel free to leave a comment if disagree or if you have any questions for me.