Irrlicht Engine

The fact is, he didn't finish even a morpg 'cuz it was too much of a challenge (it is a big one). Also, wikipedia isn't knowlegde incarnated. Furthermore, the only thing different between mmorpg and morpg is the m of massive, aka, the scale, which is subjective. The persistency of the world isn't relevant, but of course, games with 32 persons have a tendency to be less permanent than games with 10k persons. However, you'll be hard pressed to find somebody in the industry who thinks a game with anything less than 128 players simultaneously is a mmorpg. The topic recently came up in a IGDA post about which size did mmo start and I think 128 was the smallest one of the choices. The default one was 10k I think and it is common in the industry for successful mmorpg to hit at least 100k by the end of their first year.

well yeah, he failed with that. i failed once too, and doing it again xD
but nevermind

dont tell me! i thought wiki is the god!
but you are right, if you make a "small mmo" then you dont think about servers or something, but the system works for just small group.

for my smo (haha, may i call it like this? xD), i thought about around 100 ppl.
maybe i should do with 200?

but 10k is a huge number!
u think free mmos have that many ppl too? not the "big names" but the ones what arent really known.

anyway, small mmos are designed for around 200 person (what is in the mmo description), normal mmos are 10k, huge mmos are 100k right?
then there are small mmos

Actually, the current debate in the industry amongst those having business with mmo is WHAT exactly is the minimum amount, after one year, to qualify as a mmo. Seems the lower the original poller is willing to consider is 128 but up to now, no one chose that as it's answer, even those giving nuanced answer. Seem anything under 1k is really not a mmo, at least until someone bring a good and strong argument to oppose that.

>it is common in the industry for successful mmorpg to hit at least 100k by the end of their first year.

that's the global player base, not how many players one server can handle
(sorry if my post isn't perfect, surfing on a lowlife eeepc on holiday with borrowed wifi).

32 players needs to handle sync problems, 512 flocking problems (100 players meeting up in town) and so on, size matters
I don't really know but I stumbled on some "server spec" for a MMO (a real one, if it wasn't WoW, can't remember) and they had like a thousand or two players per server, then again, they use several servers per "shard"(world\kingdom\...) and several shards (lots) for their playerbase.

It would be interesting if someone has some real figures (and not mine which defenitely might be wrong even if I don't think so).

Anyhow, I bet someone can do a like 100 player online game, keeping it running might be horrible though but then again there are lot of "PHP" games (persistent multiplayer) with tens of thousands players so what do I know...

I know my eyes are too hurt by this worst screen so sorry if I wrote gibberish, I better go back to my holiday, cheers

Valmond wrote:>it is common in the industry for successful mmorpg to hit at least 100k by the end of their first year.

that's the global player base, not how many players one server can handle
(sorry if my post isn't perfect, surfing on a lowlife eeepc on holiday with borrowed wifi).

Indeed.

Valmond wrote:32 players needs to handle sync problems, 512 flocking problems (100 players meeting up in town) and so on, size matters
I don't really know but I stumbled on some "server spec" for a MMO (a real one, if it wasn't WoW, can't remember) and they had like a thousand or two players per server, then again, they use several servers per "shard"(world\kingdom\...) and several shards (lots) for their playerbase.

It would be interesting if someone has some real figures (and not mine which defenitely might be wrong even if I don't think so).

Anyhow, I bet someone can do a like 100 player online game, keeping it running might be horrible though but then again there are lot of "PHP" games (persistent multiplayer) with tens of thousands players so what do I know...

I know my eyes are too hurt by this worst screen so sorry if I wrote gibberish, I better go back to my holiday, cheers

For example, the company I work for right now has an evergrowing population, it has over 1k paying user, with about 400 paying users most of the time. Since it allows limited play for non-paying user, I can't give you exact stats, and those will grow soon. Anyway, this is on a single server.

Also, I saw some architectures for spread servers that were designed to handle strong exchange per server, but then again, still nothing less than 128 per server.

Writing an MMO is not something to be taken lightly. Especially if you want to compare yourself to MMO's like World of Warcraft.

But, if you insist on starting one, here's the approach I'd take:

Start with a small prototype. This includes a server and client app and your core game mechanic should be working well. Perfect this little patch of your world. This is how the game will look and feel.

When you're done, you should get *a lot* of manpower to create all the different models, worlds, quests and what not. And this is basically the part where 'garage games' get stuck. It costs a lot of time and effort to create all this.

Another point not to be taken lightly is game balance. Your MMO probably features some different races, classes or whatever you call them. There must be a good balance between them and gameplay must be very good.

Then there comes testing (both automated and by players). You can't open up a buggy MMO to players, so you'll have to do this.

If all that has gone well you'll go into beta. When you start your beta period, all content should be there. Everything should work (e.g. be bug free). Beta is essentially a promotional tool to open up your game to some die-hard gamers and influential people in the game world to get the word out.

After your beta (which should take no longer than a few weeks), you'll go live and people can access your game (and hopefully pay your subscription fee to keep playing it).

Writing a decent game is quite difficult, you need to keep your player entertained for 30-40 hours in a normal (single player) game. In an MMO you need to keep the player entertained for thousands of hours in order to keep getting that subscription fee in. And there are a lot of things you need to do to keep a player entertained and interested in your game.

I won't go into too much detail, but there's a lot of psychology involved.

IMHO, before you start programming your MMO, you should understand what makes (or breaks) an MMO and keeps your players entertained. If you don't get that part right, your MMO is doomed to fail, regardless of cool features or fancy graphics.

Feel free to reply if you want more info or anything.

Dorth wrote:

Valmond wrote:>it is common in the industry for successful mmorpg to hit at least 100k by the end of their first year.

that's the global player base, not how many players one server can handle
(sorry if my post isn't perfect, surfing on a lowlife eeepc on holiday with borrowed wifi).

Indeed.

Valmond wrote:32 players needs to handle sync problems, 512 flocking problems (100 players meeting up in town) and so on, size matters
I don't really know but I stumbled on some "server spec" for a MMO (a real one, if it wasn't WoW, can't remember) and they had like a thousand or two players per server, then again, they use several servers per "shard"(world\kingdom\...) and several shards (lots) for their playerbase.

It would be interesting if someone has some real figures (and not mine which defenitely might be wrong even if I don't think so).

Anyhow, I bet someone can do a like 100 player online game, keeping it running might be horrible though but then again there are lot of "PHP" games (persistent multiplayer) with tens of thousands players so what do I know...

I know my eyes are too hurt by this worst screen so sorry if I wrote gibberish, I better go back to my holiday, cheers

For example, the company I work for right now has an evergrowing population, it has over 1k paying user, with about 400 paying users most of the time. Since it allows limited play for non-paying user, I can't give you exact stats, and those will grow soon. Anyway, this is on a single server.

Also, I saw some architectures for spread servers that were designed to handle strong exchange per server, but then again, still nothing less than 128 per server.

Having 1k subscribing players is not much for an MMO. If each pays €15,00 a month, that is 15.000. Is that enough to have a live team, server hosting, and a team to work on your next expansion? (You're working on an expansion, right?)

Except it is currently paying my salary + the other members of the team, has been sustained for over 3 years now and is paying the infrastructure, publicity and development on the version 2 of the game. Don't forget micro-economies. And good management. I can say it's the best team I have worked with, and yes, the challenges are pretty high. I have worked on mmo since I've started as a coder, I believe. And I'd STILL recommend anyone who doesn't know EXACTLY what he is doing away from them. It's treacherous waters time 20. Do NOT start ANY MMO projects unless EVERYONE in the team knows EXACTLY what you're in for, EVERYONE is at the very least good at what he does, EVERYONE as one of the important job until they are all filled twice over and EVERYONE is ready for it to fail still after using up to 3 years of their lives. THAT'S the deal with MMO. At least, any MMO worth mentionning.

>Dorth
Thanks for the information, I'd love to ask some more questions once I'll be back home, like do you have a link to your game, have you many hack attacks against the game, how does server load change according to connected players (more or less linear or not) etc etc (I understand if you can't answer some \ any questions).

>ariejan
+1
(then again I'm doing a multiplayer game... got some experience though so we'll see how it works out...)

@Valmond:

Doing a multiplayer or an MMO are different, but there's a lot of overlap too. Game play needs to be fun and balanced. With an MMO you'll also need to keep a player interested in continuing to play. Multiplayer games normally involve the concept of a single game or round, then the 'game world' is reset.

@Dorth:

I'm not saying you're not having a good business. How big is your team? Are you actively working on new content/expansions? And, could you share the name/url for the MMO, I'd love to check it out.

Star Sonata 2

Hey, you might be interested in this article (by me) about mmo development

http://blog.forsakenlabs.com/2009/08/05 ... nt-part-1/

ariejan wrote:Hey, you might be interested in this article (by me) about mmo development

http://blog.forsakenlabs.com/2009/08/05 ... nt-part-1/

bookmarked! looking forward for more articles. good job ariejan!

@Dorth
I'l defenitely check out your game when I'm back home.

@ariejan

Yeah, very good, should be in a sticky "So you want to make a MMORPG" thread

Another aspect when talking about game mechanics is that in a single player game you can let the player become über powerful in 30 hours of play, in a MMO this shouldn't happen that fast (if ever for most players) so they have to be amused in other ways too (crafting etc.) without feeling that they never get anywhere (the game is too hard).

MMO also needs a lot of other mechanics like guilds, friend lists, "Auction house", groups and so on, not to mention problems with griefers (insults, camping, player naming themselves offensively and whatnot).

Maybe a small part on cheaters, hackers and exploits could be useful too


ps.
A single player game is almost always played off line on the players computer of console.
should maybe be
A single player game is almost always played off line on the players computer or console.

Figured I'd chime in... (all of my second post)... creating an MMO is my desire, sure, but (in the unlikely event the original author is still here), my current project is "Making my 3d image render in a window", my next will be "Rendering multiple 3d images at specified points"... my first game goal is "two-player-no-ai chess in 3d with camera controls".

Unless you can make a game, and its playable, you cannot make an MMO, regardless of how complex said MMO is.

(For naysayers to me eventually developing an mmo, my idea for an mmo to eventually develop is, at least so far, a niche market that isn't inundated with big titles, and will require simple assests... though I'm not about to attempt it without help... but alas, its far distant... for now, I'll be happy when I get irr to like my ms3d files)