I have a question, when is to far in video games? If I get a chainsaw and hack a 5 year old child in a game in half, is that to far? Or is it to far, if I can light a countries flag on fire? Or light churches on fire? I was just wondering should the creativity of game designed be hindered by someone elses moral objections?
If I had a game about a Scottish one eyed athiest whom went around with a chainsaw and lighter fluid lighting churches on fire would this tingle some peoples moral bones?
Anyway whats your opinion on the issue. When has something gone to far in video games.
Moral Objects In Realtion to Video Games
Moral Objects In Realtion to Video Games
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I'd say unless you're the next RockStar, you'll probably find that the moral limit that LionHead imposed himself are the most logic. They found out the hardway you should not allow kids to be slaughtered in a game. Why? Because some people will do it. A lot. And it'll get around. etc. Like I said, unless you want to use RockStar tactic, AO2, GTA are probably the very edge of what you can get away with. ^^
Honestly if it was for me... It's a game and it's not reality and I don't care if you are able to hack and slash 5 years old kids or set churches on fire, I would be able to recognize reality and I would probably not be shocked from it.
On the other hand, there will be a lot of people complaining about your game telling you how "evil" it is and that it suggests other mad people to do so in real life, which is a very poor excuse in my opinion since a person doesn't really need a videogame to start doing those things in real life, if somebody is already mentally ill, games aren't to blame.
On the other hand, there will be a lot of people complaining about your game telling you how "evil" it is and that it suggests other mad people to do so in real life, which is a very poor excuse in my opinion since a person doesn't really need a videogame to start doing those things in real life, if somebody is already mentally ill, games aren't to blame.
I'm also most of the idea that those things happen by way more complex probs than playing a game..
yet tho..
my 2c
yet tho..
Some people can feel offended by that. Imo, that's the main point, respecting the other, being different or not. And personally I don't like to see that kind of stuff, as a personal preference...but hey... Imo there's no need to use that as method to hide some skills to achieve a master piece,(which wont happen anyway just 'cause you add some gratuitous cruel gore or some offense of any kind) this kind of things too often I see done to bring attention when by itself the art or software is not good at all, or when the guy has some mind probs(and reacts defensively) that he or she would better address first...lol...If I get a chainsaw and hack a 5 year old child in a game in half, is that to far? Or is it to far, if I can light a countries flag on fire? Or light churches on fire? I was just wondering should the creativity of game designed be hindered by someone elses moral objections?
If I had a game about a Scottish one eyed athiest whom went around with a chainsaw and lighter fluid lighting churches on fire would this tingle some peoples moral bones?
my 2c
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**Note** I hope no one is offended by this post but its my own belief.
I don't think that your choices should be based on some one elses moral standard but should be based on your own moral standard and if hacking a 5 year old CHILD in 2 doesn't offend your morals then maybe its time that you have a look at your moral standards to find out exactly what they are! As far as burning churches and stuff like that being a Christian my self I wouldn't have anything to do with the game but I realize not every one has the same belief as me. I am just sorry that they don't know my Lord and Savior because he has made my life complete!
I don't think that your choices should be based on some one elses moral standard but should be based on your own moral standard and if hacking a 5 year old CHILD in 2 doesn't offend your morals then maybe its time that you have a look at your moral standards to find out exactly what they are! As far as burning churches and stuff like that being a Christian my self I wouldn't have anything to do with the game but I realize not every one has the same belief as me. I am just sorry that they don't know my Lord and Savior because he has made my life complete!
I'd say that everyone who creates something has to set the limits for himself. But I'm also not so happy if someone breaks moral and ethic conventions without thinking hard about why he's doing that. And it's certainly just stupid if you break them so much that you break a law while doing so without having a real good reason for that ;-)
So personally I despise anyone who just adds violence in the hope to sell more units for a game. I tend not to care that much if someone adds the same because he thinks it increases fun. I really like it if someone adds it to set up a moral dilemma for the player. And I think the reason why someone adds stuff to a game will automatically influence the sort of content he is using.
There's also the thing that your creation does certainly represent you up to a certain point. Gamedevelopement is (or can be) a form of expression and so you shouldn't put less thought in what you produce than you do for talking, writing or painting.
As player I draw the line for myself somewhere between GTA and Postal. GTA is fine for me, Postal ain't. And we definitely need more burning churches ;-)
So personally I despise anyone who just adds violence in the hope to sell more units for a game. I tend not to care that much if someone adds the same because he thinks it increases fun. I really like it if someone adds it to set up a moral dilemma for the player. And I think the reason why someone adds stuff to a game will automatically influence the sort of content he is using.
There's also the thing that your creation does certainly represent you up to a certain point. Gamedevelopement is (or can be) a form of expression and so you shouldn't put less thought in what you produce than you do for talking, writing or painting.
As player I draw the line for myself somewhere between GTA and Postal. GTA is fine for me, Postal ain't. And we definitely need more burning churches ;-)
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Wrong way to go, surely(I was carefully avoiding the matter, but...). You wont convince so more people, but less.... Besides, this trend of blaming religion about things whose reasons behind are more of the kind of economics, natural resources theft, frontiers, and territorial fights...maybe is trendy, but majorly false, and starts to be boring. Trends aren't individually thought(deeply, freely I mean) , just followed 'cause is the cool thing to say or as it avoids deeper thoughts. And of course, highly offensive. However, is easier to find an easy target than see things in its complexity.And we definitely need more burning churches
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Who says a burning church would have to be a form of critisizing religion? I suppose even a christian game could use this - for example at the start of the game to set up a story... you're that guy coming out alive... the only one coming you alive ... behind you this burning church...
It's always about how and why you use content.
It's always about how and why you use content.
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rogerborg
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Re: Moral Objects In Realtion to Video Games
If you produce something that incidentally allows users to perform tasteless or offensive actions, then the responsibility for creating that 'content' is entirely theirs, not yours.
Anyone who disagrees (I'm looking at you, Jack Thompson), I'll send you a video of me abusing a hog-tied Barbie doll, and you can sue Mattel for emotional distress.
However, if you require, encourage or reward actions, then you share culpability. What, if anything, you're culpable of is a morally relativistic argument. If you make it a legal argument, then just about everything is illegal or prohibited somewhere.
Incidentally, I have played through parts of GTA: San Andreas (volume set low) with my 4 year old son as 'navigator'. We took snapshots, collected oysters and horseshoes, delivered packages and cars, jumped up ramps in slow motion, and did all the racing challenges. Not once did we run anyone down (really, it is possible), fire a gun, jack a car with anyone in it, or beat a hooker to death with a giant purple two headed dildo, and along the way we carefully discussed the difference between what you can do in games and in real life. Responsibility lies predominantly with the player, not the developer.
Anyone who disagrees (I'm looking at you, Jack Thompson), I'll send you a video of me abusing a hog-tied Barbie doll, and you can sue Mattel for emotional distress.
However, if you require, encourage or reward actions, then you share culpability. What, if anything, you're culpable of is a morally relativistic argument. If you make it a legal argument, then just about everything is illegal or prohibited somewhere.
Incidentally, I have played through parts of GTA: San Andreas (volume set low) with my 4 year old son as 'navigator'. We took snapshots, collected oysters and horseshoes, delivered packages and cars, jumped up ramps in slow motion, and did all the racing challenges. Not once did we run anyone down (really, it is possible), fire a gun, jack a car with anyone in it, or beat a hooker to death with a giant purple two headed dildo, and along the way we carefully discussed the difference between what you can do in games and in real life. Responsibility lies predominantly with the player, not the developer.
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Some pretty interesting points you bring up, I like the idea how it is up to the player to choose via their own moral objections. And I agree that video games are not the root of all evil, I think its people whom are not allowed to be desensitized by video games and are over sheltered that have a higher change, added to with mental problems that do these horrible things. Bringing back to that point some 14 year old boy commited suicied after playing world of warcraft a MMORPG, because he wanted to go to heaven and be with them. So obviously its not directly stemmed out of violence.
The point of art in a way is to push boundaries, to shape society. I agree that adding gore to sell more cd's is just a stupid idea, and is a crude cover up for a horrible storyline and or graphics.. Postal 2..
Yet in games such as Postal 2 you are subjected to your own personal beliefs, you do not have to kill anyone, except those that are crazed lunatics trying to kill you. And even then you are not forced to kill them. Guns are only found by doing the wrong thing and the storyline is about getting milk and picking up pay checks.
I have grown up with video games and its just understood among people my age that its just a game. I think if people have no social interation, it may not be a game to them and I am sure some people that play WoW, EverCrack or Eve would argue with you on that issue. If people understand the difference between reality and games then it should bare no real problems that were not going to arise anyway. But with graphics becoming so much better, how could a 5 -7 year old tell the difference between the person on the screen and reality.
I think by making a game game like adding realistic and non realistic features it helps set the boundary, for example being able to be shot 20 times does not really portray realism, and having points or money helps with this. I think the money factor is a issue as well, in all the GTA's you could not really make billions of dollars without using the poker machine expolit or following the storyline, which I think also helped with the boundary. So having a mixture helps this along..
Some games though are built to fuel moral objection and that is the entire point of the game, and in a way I respect that because it is pushing society, and not setting boundaries exactly on what is right and what is wrong, because you have to admit violence is a part of life and video games, games try to portray it in a completely different sense than to real life though.
Onto religion, well in my opinion people should say what they like about in games whether they hate it and try to kill all the religious people or your Mohammad or jesus christ in the flesh, i think censorship of views is wrong, and people should not try to ban this type of material, because simply ignoring it is your right as well, don't fund the project but pulling it down is ridiculous as well. Because if you don't like the game your probably not the target market, except in that ship of a game ET on the atari, thats worse than. I will stop at that on that game
So Morals are just made to be broken as publicity stunts in games or they are simply based on the users belief system. It can now be seen the emergence of games based on peoples morals such as black and white, and I think this is a good way to take a section of the industry, as it makes each player unique. ( Well to the degree the programmers decide to make it unique).
Would love to hear more views on the issue, as a closing statement, I think if society can find the boundary between reality and virtuality (made up word but you get the point) and developers can understand the difference between morals hold on developers and morals... OH well we tried
P.S
Anyone know of any other games that tingle your morals or the game evolves based on your morals, I can name Black and white and fable... Also how did Lion Head learn the hard way?
Thanks for all the feedback. Please post more views. (Sorry If the grammars jumbled, I am tired. I probably said the same phrase about 4 to 10 times in a row LOL).
The point of art in a way is to push boundaries, to shape society. I agree that adding gore to sell more cd's is just a stupid idea, and is a crude cover up for a horrible storyline and or graphics.. Postal 2..
Yet in games such as Postal 2 you are subjected to your own personal beliefs, you do not have to kill anyone, except those that are crazed lunatics trying to kill you. And even then you are not forced to kill them. Guns are only found by doing the wrong thing and the storyline is about getting milk and picking up pay checks.
I have grown up with video games and its just understood among people my age that its just a game. I think if people have no social interation, it may not be a game to them and I am sure some people that play WoW, EverCrack or Eve would argue with you on that issue. If people understand the difference between reality and games then it should bare no real problems that were not going to arise anyway. But with graphics becoming so much better, how could a 5 -7 year old tell the difference between the person on the screen and reality.
I think by making a game game like adding realistic and non realistic features it helps set the boundary, for example being able to be shot 20 times does not really portray realism, and having points or money helps with this. I think the money factor is a issue as well, in all the GTA's you could not really make billions of dollars without using the poker machine expolit or following the storyline, which I think also helped with the boundary. So having a mixture helps this along..
Some games though are built to fuel moral objection and that is the entire point of the game, and in a way I respect that because it is pushing society, and not setting boundaries exactly on what is right and what is wrong, because you have to admit violence is a part of life and video games, games try to portray it in a completely different sense than to real life though.
Onto religion, well in my opinion people should say what they like about in games whether they hate it and try to kill all the religious people or your Mohammad or jesus christ in the flesh, i think censorship of views is wrong, and people should not try to ban this type of material, because simply ignoring it is your right as well, don't fund the project but pulling it down is ridiculous as well. Because if you don't like the game your probably not the target market, except in that ship of a game ET on the atari, thats worse than. I will stop at that on that game
So Morals are just made to be broken as publicity stunts in games or they are simply based on the users belief system. It can now be seen the emergence of games based on peoples morals such as black and white, and I think this is a good way to take a section of the industry, as it makes each player unique. ( Well to the degree the programmers decide to make it unique).
Would love to hear more views on the issue, as a closing statement, I think if society can find the boundary between reality and virtuality (made up word but you get the point) and developers can understand the difference between morals hold on developers and morals... OH well we tried
P.S
Anyone know of any other games that tingle your morals or the game evolves based on your morals, I can name Black and white and fable... Also how did Lion Head learn the hard way?
Thanks for all the feedback. Please post more views. (Sorry If the grammars jumbled, I am tired. I probably said the same phrase about 4 to 10 times in a row LOL).
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They need a parent to explain it to them, which is why I'm doing it early. By the time my kids are old enough to play games without supervision, they're going to be so realistic that the bruises on the dead hookers will be indistinguishable from those inflicted by a real giant dildo, so they really need to be taught the distinction and the boundaries now. Parents who fail to do their job in that respect should be held fully responsible for the consequences, although there's probably more chance of Duke Nukem Forever being released than that happening.dejai wrote:But with graphics becoming so much better, how could a 5 -7 year old tell the difference between the person on the screen and reality.
I'm guessing that's a reference to B&W rewarding you for sacrificing children, although I don't know that Lionhead suffered any negative consequences from that (what with Jack and Hillary being pretty busy screaming "Witch!" at Rockstar).dejai wrote:Also how did Lion Head learn the hard way?
Most games go well out of their way to avoid having any children in them (GTA series) or to make them invulnerable (Neverwinter Nights) where they do appear.
Incidentally, I know that the kids in NWN are invulnerable because I tried every way I could think of to kill them. Does Bioware share any guilt for my attempted child murder?
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At any point am against censorship.
But I keep thinking is a matter of sensibility.
Didn't mean there's something you *can't* do. I think is simply cruel in several cases. You don't go to a funeral of somebody and start laughing and farting everywhere. If you do, I wouldn't be surprised if somebody make that day for you, also , "unforgetable", as you are making it in moments of serious pain to others. With religion, is similar if treated with intentional ofensive way. With people that historically was murdered and suffered crazily, *again*, some care, means being more human, specially for the families.
Nobody is gonna force u to do that, wasnt my point anyway. Is up to any one. But I am not gonna admit it as minimally wise if done other way.
And about target market, if mainstream games are totally absorbing all shelves space and more interesting indy games can't reach there, is obvious that a regulkar consumer of this, of films , or whatever, has rights also to the regular consume, and still, not be forced to stand an scene that he didn't wanted. Not that am in that need (neither I do think doing cruel imaginery is more manly, or more cool, that's plain absurd) , but still, angers me quite that ppl more and more don't care a f*** of others feelings(and about stuff they never knew, usually, and about which they talk as if they would). That's all. But no censorship. And teh relation of games and violence, to me never sounded real. All is a factor in your mind, but I guess how environment treats the guys is *way* much more the key. that plus genetics, family , etc.
if you fill aaaalll mainstream market of films and games of violence and stuff, scripts that don't care what really happened on that or what conflict, neither on sensibility of families, or in other sensibility,(just 'cause the one affected are a minority, the ones wanting circus and blood (like in ancient Rome) , is a majority...market, savage money gain reasons only while creating art, way to go... ) then is not a matter of the user "choosing" the right niche target... And that wouldn't be democratic. Media in general, now that the matter arises, is shaping everyone to be more and more careless about ppl in worse situation. So, that's not shaping society, is making it ...careless, selfish.
Is my point of view, and you asked for opinions
But I keep thinking is a matter of sensibility.
Didn't mean there's something you *can't* do. I think is simply cruel in several cases. You don't go to a funeral of somebody and start laughing and farting everywhere. If you do, I wouldn't be surprised if somebody make that day for you, also , "unforgetable", as you are making it in moments of serious pain to others. With religion, is similar if treated with intentional ofensive way. With people that historically was murdered and suffered crazily, *again*, some care, means being more human, specially for the families.
Nobody is gonna force u to do that, wasnt my point anyway. Is up to any one. But I am not gonna admit it as minimally wise if done other way.
And about target market, if mainstream games are totally absorbing all shelves space and more interesting indy games can't reach there, is obvious that a regulkar consumer of this, of films , or whatever, has rights also to the regular consume, and still, not be forced to stand an scene that he didn't wanted. Not that am in that need (neither I do think doing cruel imaginery is more manly, or more cool, that's plain absurd) , but still, angers me quite that ppl more and more don't care a f*** of others feelings(and about stuff they never knew, usually, and about which they talk as if they would). That's all. But no censorship. And teh relation of games and violence, to me never sounded real. All is a factor in your mind, but I guess how environment treats the guys is *way* much more the key. that plus genetics, family , etc.
if you fill aaaalll mainstream market of films and games of violence and stuff, scripts that don't care what really happened on that or what conflict, neither on sensibility of families, or in other sensibility,(just 'cause the one affected are a minority, the ones wanting circus and blood (like in ancient Rome) , is a majority...market, savage money gain reasons only while creating art, way to go... ) then is not a matter of the user "choosing" the right niche target... And that wouldn't be democratic. Media in general, now that the matter arises, is shaping everyone to be more and more careless about ppl in worse situation. So, that's not shaping society, is making it ...careless, selfish.
Is my point of view, and you asked for opinions
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I know is an easy joke, but that one did draw me a smile...more chance of Duke Nukem Forever being released than that happening.
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About the difference of games and reality...
I don't think the distinction is that clear cut as many players assume. There is an interface between those worlds - and that's in the minds of the players. They can distinguish the worlds, but they can also connect them. So while the computer will not care if a pixel is red or green, the player can draw the connection and he knows while playing that one is for blood and the other for alien slime.
Also I think that the emotional effect of most games is currently still rather weak as it's mainly about using shocking or gross effects. When reading this thread I get the feeling that using religion might produce a lot stronger emotions...
I don't think the distinction is that clear cut as many players assume. There is an interface between those worlds - and that's in the minds of the players. They can distinguish the worlds, but they can also connect them. So while the computer will not care if a pixel is red or green, the player can draw the connection and he knows while playing that one is for blood and the other for alien slime.
Also I think that the emotional effect of most games is currently still rather weak as it's mainly about using shocking or gross effects. When reading this thread I get the feeling that using religion might produce a lot stronger emotions...
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Ah damn. I'm always sucked in by controversy.
<rant>
I think that there should be no boundary for morality in computer games for adults, especially in role playing games. For children, it should be up to their parents.
I myself was upset that there were no pregnant young mothers crossing the roads pushing prams in GTA, as this would have added to my gaming experience. Does my character crash to avoid them and risk arrest, or drive down the pavement and hit as many people as possible? Am I the gangsta with a heart of gold, or the most evil piece of work the world has ever known? I'm the only person who should have say about what I can and cannot paint on the canvas of my gaming experience, certainly not stuffy censors who are not even open to discussion of, let alone exploration of morality.
And I believe the exploration of morality is deeply important. Without it we'd still be beating women, stoning homosexuals, burning heretics, torturing criminals, keeping slaves and engaging in genocide. Rape would still be a spoil of war, and public executions a fun day out for all the family. Why are these things wrong? Not because some authority said so, but because people explored the question rationally and sensible policies on civil rights were reached.
When meat is eventually outlawed (and I believe should and will be), will it be right for it to be banned from books and paintings because the general population sees it as vile murder? I certainly hope not.
</rant>
I loved reading all your responses guys, especially rogerborg's (as usual)
<rant>
I think that there should be no boundary for morality in computer games for adults, especially in role playing games. For children, it should be up to their parents.
I myself was upset that there were no pregnant young mothers crossing the roads pushing prams in GTA, as this would have added to my gaming experience. Does my character crash to avoid them and risk arrest, or drive down the pavement and hit as many people as possible? Am I the gangsta with a heart of gold, or the most evil piece of work the world has ever known? I'm the only person who should have say about what I can and cannot paint on the canvas of my gaming experience, certainly not stuffy censors who are not even open to discussion of, let alone exploration of morality.
And I believe the exploration of morality is deeply important. Without it we'd still be beating women, stoning homosexuals, burning heretics, torturing criminals, keeping slaves and engaging in genocide. Rape would still be a spoil of war, and public executions a fun day out for all the family. Why are these things wrong? Not because some authority said so, but because people explored the question rationally and sensible policies on civil rights were reached.
When meat is eventually outlawed (and I believe should and will be), will it be right for it to be banned from books and paintings because the general population sees it as vile murder? I certainly hope not.
</rant>
I loved reading all your responses guys, especially rogerborg's (as usual)