About supporting Quake III

[christianclavet]

Hi,

The support for Quake III maps, shaders and models in IRRlicht are great.

But I was trying to import a BSP I made using "OPEN ARENA" & GTKRadiant an open source equivalent to quake III based on the same source as the Quake III engine.

The BSP doesnt seem to be compatible, I've tryied to compile the .MAP file with another tools that can compile QUAKE MAP to BSP. Still the same.

So for using this I absolutely need QUAKEIII???

Can someone could tell me how compatible the IRRlicht BSP loader is with other QUAKEIII type BSP?

Is there a working tool to create MD3? (I use 3DS in a recent version (at least version 9)) but there is no exporter for it to create MD3 (Latest release I found was release 6 and didnt worked.)

This was all tested under the latest version of IRRlicht (1.5 official release)

Thanks.

[sio2]

Can someone could tell me how compatible the IRRlicht BSP loader is with other QUAKEIII type BSP?

At the moment I would say that you can only load Quake3 BSP files. Compiled BSP files hold a version number in the header - I would imagine that "Open Arena" uses a different version number, hence the Irrlicht BSP loader would simply bail.

I guess there's no reason why Irrlicht can't load Open Arena BSP files. It just needs support added to the BSP loader. I'm guessing that the "open" part means that full source code is available, including the BSP file format? If I had those details I could add support myself. One of the most common alterations is to increase the resolution of lightmaps, but this requires a change in the BSP version number.

Did they change the MD3 model format as well? Anyway, I personally would avoid the MD3 format.

I'm just wrapping up Version 0.3 of IrrPhysx (with fluid support). One of the tasks on my list was to look at adding PVS support to the Irrlicht BSP loader so I guess I could bump this up my list and look at loading Open Arena files.

Can I ask why you're not just using vanilla Quake3?

Oh, and if you can supply an Open Arena level you have built it would help for testing.

[Katsankat]

So for using this I absolutely need QUAKEIII???

Hi, GTKRadiant 1.5.0 is multi-engine so it might be possible to set up radiant for your engine. This is what I am working on at the moment. The engine will have its own game definition file that contains the entity list available for this engine. This is certainly how they did for RTCW, Quake, Doom... If I can find something it will be shared.

[sio2]

So for using this I absolutely need QUAKEIII???

Hi, GTKRadiant 1.5.0 is multi-engine so it might be possible to set up radiant for your engine. This is what I am working on at the moment. The engine will have its own game definition file that contains the entity list available for this engine. This is certainly how they did for RTCW, Quake, Doom... If I can find something it will be shared.

I think Christian's problem is that the bsp won't load in Irrlicht. I'm guessing it's the bsp version number, but I'll try it for myself when I get chance...

[christianclavet]

Hi! Thanks for the reply!

Wow! Great!
Here is the OpenArena Web site: http://openarena.ws/

I would have prefered opening Source's BSP files (My experience is mostly building levels with Hammer), but since they don't load (MAP files and VMF files are a lot different, I assume they changed it a lot). I was at least hoping to build levels inside GTK Radiant. Quake III is almost 10 years old now, I really think it's really passed out. We should be open to new technologies based on this (The Quake base is still used today but being updated)

If you could update IRRlicht to accomodate for those new technology I would be very happy!

In fact, I like the BSP file format so much, I think it could serve as a really good format for saving IRRLicht scenes in a binary fashion. With it we could have the whole scene, the textures, the shaders files (Could be Quake type shaders, HLSL or GLSL), the geometry of the meshes all inside a single file, and all the nodes (light nodes, camera nodes, etc).

A converter could be made so we could load QuakeIII types BSP and convert them into the IRRlicht variant (converting some Entities to nodes). But this could be a separate project.... Still I'm only a level designer playing a little with C++ code.

For the results of the BSP file loading; at the moment, the file is being loaded correctly, textures inside the BSP seem to be loaded, but the geometry is discarded (OpenArena Bsp's).

EDIT: Here is the link to a test level I made using GTK Radiant. It's really small and was just to test. The compile was done using OpenArena tools.

http://www.clavet.org/files/Storage/OA_Test_Map.zip

[sio2]

For the results of the BSP file loading; at the moment, the file is being loaded correctly, textures inside the BSP seem to be loaded, but the geometry is discarded (OpenArena Bsp's).

I'll take a look at it. I've just released IrrPhysx 0.3 so I'm now moving to the next item on my task list - BSP PVS was one of them.

Am I right in thinking that you're not bothered which BSP technology we use? For example, if I made a Doom3 BSP loader you'd be equally happy? (I already have a demo of loading Doom3 MD5 models in Irrlicht on my website).

[christianclavet]

I'll take a look at it. I've just released IrrPhysx 0.3 so I'm now moving to the next item on my task list - BSP PVS was one of them.

Am I right in thinking that you're not bothered which BSP technology we use? For example, if I made a Doom3 BSP loader you'd be equally happy? (I already have a demo of loading Doom3 MD5 models in Irrlicht on my website).

Yes. The only thing that is important, is that we are able to use an open source editor (GtkRadiant for example) with and open source map compiler to produce the BSP. So we don't have to search for a old discontinued product to create the BSP. From what I understand, is that GTK Radiant is producing the QuakeIII MAP file but the OpenArena BSP compile tool is making that uncompatible with the IRRlicht loader.

I could say that I'd be more in favor for a BSP format compatible with Source/Hammer. (Since it's one of the most up to date BSP editor right now, but supporting an open source BSP format would be important also (since the developper would not have to buy a game for developping his own level for IRRlicht)

What would be great of the IRRlicht BSP loader:
- Compatibility with Quake III bsp (As it is now)
- Compatibility with Source BSP (I'd would be overjoyed as I could make huge maps in very short time). The bad point (as quake III) is that the developper has to get Hammer and a source game engine (as OrangeBox for example, just to compile the maps for IRRlicht)
- Compatiblity with an open source Quake III (As OpenArena). The tool is still developped, and it cost nothing. So perfect for testing purpose. But if the project would stop being developped and dropped; the IRRlicht community would have to support theses tools by hosting them for their community users (files hosting for downloading the tools)

I've also tried to load the given MAPs from the Open Arena distribution and they also don't load the geometry.
EDIT: Humm, strange. I downloaded Quake III from the net and tried to load it's map (It's point release 1.32). Everything seem to load exept the map mesh (All the textures and the shaders in the BSP were loaded)

Does the BSP format has been changed? IRRlicht is compatible with witch version of Quake III BSP?

[sio2]

I just tried loading an Open Arena map and it loaded just fine.

I got openarena-0.8.1, loaded up Irrlicht 1.4.2 examples, altered the Quake3Map example to use pak0, pak1-maps and pak4-textures (full paths to the pk3's), then loaded maps/aggressor.bsp. Worked fine.

[christianclavet]

Thanks a lot SIO2.

I finally understand what was the problem. I was assuming the textures was loaded inside the BSP and in fact it was not. I was thinking the texture were loaded because I did only got "Loaded texture: textures/gothic_trim/pitted_rust" messages. I think the BSP loader output is wrong about this. Having the whole thing inside the PK3 solved the problem.

If you need to create a BSP, you need also all the textures you used inside your PK3 (or path).

I've done the same thing as you've done and it now load and display correctly (A standard quake III map with all the texture).

Is there some optimisations done when you load a BSP inside IRRlicht 1.5?
I've got a 300+FPS frame rate and from what I see there, the map contain 100,000+ polys. I used the base loaders (shaders are not processed)

Code: Select all

Irrlicht Engine version 1.5
Microsoft Windows Vista Personal Service Pack 1 (Build 6001)
Using renderer: Direct3D 9.0
NVIDIA GeForce 9800 GX2 nvd3dum.dll 7.15.11.8048
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t3_3k
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Loaded texture: textures/gothic_door/skull_door_c.tga
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Loaded texture: pjwal2k.jpg
Loaded texture: visor_st.jpg
Loaded texture: major_st.jpg
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Loaded texture: models/players/ranger/ranger_statue.tga
Loaded texture: models/players/ranger/ranger_h_statue.tga
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Loaded texture: models/mapobjects/storch/storch.jpg
Loaded texture: storch_tall.jpg
Loaded texture: models/mapobjects/wallhead/wallhead02.jpg
Loaded mesh: q3dm9.bsp
Needed 135ms to create OctTree SceneNode.(1117 nodes, 101765 polys)

[sio2]

Is there some optimisations done when you load a BSP inside IRRlicht 1.5?

I don't believe so. I would try loading as a Mesh, not an Octree, and setting the hardware mapping hint to Static. See what your frame rate is - it should be higher.

[Katsankat]

Optimisation ... The main reason to use bsp format is that it handles VIS however irrlicht code does not. This is the main optimisation, with hint brushes.

sio2 why not octree, as stated in the tutorial and recommended by many people here?

[hybrid]

Because VBOs will give much better performance.

[sio2]

sio2 why not octree, as stated in the tutorial and recommended by many people here?

As Irrlicht stands at the moment, if you load a Quake3 level as a Mesh and upload it into hardware buffers you will see vastly improved performance compared to using an octree. [This has been verified by others, including Hybrid, I believe.] There's no cpu overhead, the GPU gets a large batch of work to do and no vertex/index data has to travel over the bus. Currently, octree data is in cpu memory, the cpu has to work out what intersects the view volume (which may be the entire level as a worst case), fill buffers in ram that the driver has to copy to it's internal buffers, etc.

Ideally we would prefer Irrlicht to load a Quake3 bsp and use the PVS, but that hasn't been coded yet (and we could also cull other Irrlicht scene nodes if we classified them within the bsp tree).

Perhaps the octree system could be improved by uploading the vertices to a hw vertex buffer and fill a dynamic index buffer with indices referring to primitives that are currently visible. This could prove a major performance increase. You must still bear in mind that a naive octree won't cull primitives that are in the view volume but are behind a huge viewport-covering wall that you're standing in front of.

[sio2]

Because VBOs will give much better performance.

I'd be interested in seeing if uploading the vertices to a static vertex buffer and filling in a dynamic index buffer would give a performance improvement over the current octree code...

[vermeer]

not interested in bsps and .map workflows,(I way much prefer direct plugins from Blender) but have you tried Quark editor(more free licences than gtk radiant I think)?

http://quark.planetquake.gamespy.com/su ... ugins.php3

and getting map editor and bsp compiler (strong doubts on that bsp be compatible with quake3 bsp, also unsure on licensing, but seems freeware...)

http://www.getic.net/