[Help Wanted] "The First King" - FPS game. PRE-ALP

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bitplane
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Post by bitplane »

dlangdev wrote:interesting, i have borrowed this book from our local community library titled "the book of the dead", something about a cult that wrote text for the dead, translated from egyptian writing, said to be from ani.

i could copy some of the images for reference if you need them. not sure if i'm violating any copyright there or not.
IIRC The Book of the Dead is freely available from project gutenberg, and is free because the translator has been dead for 100 years. I don't know if it has pictures or not, but I would guess that the pictures are long out of copyright if they're from the original.

Cool images btw, looks like this project is gaining momentum.. best of luck to you :)
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vermeer
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Post by vermeer »

lostanimator wrote:answer to vermeer:

You're wright, but Christian asked me for larger hands, and they will be at the viewer's height most time, I could push the proportions to a more balanced canon, but again sculpture is made to be seen from a certain view (perhaps we need a larger head if we want to see facial detail while playing, as it´ll be farther from "our" eyes), this is 3D, but we tend to accent certain parts depending on the purpose, or sometimes less reasonable reasons.

Anyway, thanks for the comment, about real egytptian representations of jackal men, or Anubis figures, they usually follow normal human proportions, sometimes slimer, but not monster like in any way. I had some other references, but again Chris asked to use the game pdf as a guide.

Please also allow some freedom for being a little freaky, we´re trying to put together a game!
Was only a question... I see it ok when it's on purpose . I Didn't know was to be in very high places, neither that it was an sculpture, thought it was one of the badies, seen at eye level like in any FPS. Anyway, have read almost nothing of this thread, was only wandering by a second with some curiosity here, only that . Anyway, it's the artist's shot, so, could only be a question ;)
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Ico
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Post by Ico »

dlangdev wrote:interesting, i have borrowed this book from our local community library titled "the book of the dead", something about a cult that wrote text for the dead, translated from egyptian writing, said to be from ani.
The book of the dead was something like a guide that should lead the soul of the deceased on its way to the underworld to be finally judged (Feathre of Ma'at etc.). An english translation can be found here: http://www.aldokkan.com/religion/dead.htm There are also similar texts in other cultures (i.e. Tibetan Buddhism IIRC).

No one will kill you for showing some pages as a reference etc. as long as you don't make it public (for example keep it between friends).

Bitplane (not 100% sure on this): The text itself is public domain but not the published work as a whole. Also images could still be unter a (now new) copyright if they're redone or whatever.
lostanimator
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Post by lostanimator »

Hi again vermeer. You comments were welcome, I just tried to be explicative on what I took into account while changing the proportions.

I meant sculptures, in general (not this model) are normally adapted to the viewers perspective, in this case, it´s going to be a 9-12 feet tall beast, which puts human sized creatures at it´s thorax level, therefore the head might look a little smaller than required for facial expressions to be striking. The hands will be moving around, and it´s usual to increase a little the parts of the figure you want to stand out.

But again, thanks for questioning, and I will gladly change shapes, if Christian thinks it can be refined for good.

By the way, I´ve learned much from your posts on irrlicht (not that I´ve learned much, but much of the little I´ve grasped so far), so, my respect for that, too, and please keep it up.
christianclavet
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Post by christianclavet »

Ico, Here is the original "book of dead" at the British Museum
http://picasaweb.google.com/echollin/Lo ... 9172219266

Not sure we could use it. The story and backstory are done. We could perhaps found some interesting elements there for activating the kensu portal in the Osiris tomb. I'll check it again.

vermeer, check and download the documentation of the project. You'll see the reference we're using.
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Post by vermeer »

I see....heck, is gonna be fun to see such a giant creature moving around... ;)
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lostanimator
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Post by lostanimator »

These are the final sketches for the anubis soldier, particulary recognizable by theis unproportionated hands (joke).


http://www.caurium.com/irr/anubis_front.jpg
http://www.caurium.com/irr/anubis_side.jpg
http://www.caurium.com/irr/anubis_back.jpg

I´m trying to decide wht would be a better solution for the modelling.

I guess some of you have experience with different techniques, so please let me know your opinions.

- Option A: Low polygon model to be generated from a box, extruded to get arms, head and legs, and then refined according to te sketch.

pros: Easier to keep low polygon count, easier to unwrap for mapping, and easier to paint for texturing.

cons: Less organic feel (I know it depends on the quality, but normally people use clothing, wrinkles, and props to diguise picky bits...)


- Option B: Nurbs modelling, or some other spline based technique.

pros: higher control over curving surfaces and such, therefore more organic appearance

cons: More difficult to unwrap, possible coincident areas when texture painting, and not sure it I can optimize properly to achieve acceptable polygon count.

TIPS WELCOME, VERY WELCOME, so please do advice me ontopics to avoid, or technique advantages.
Ico
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Post by Ico »

No 3d guru or so at all and don't know if it's even possible but why don#t you use option A to create the ingame mesh and somehow use option B for normal maps etc.?
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Post by FuzzYspo0N »

Hi guys :) I havent read the whole thing. BUt i will, also,

There are a few tutorials on game-artist.net ,that deal with the best choice for a model in a kind of game. Also, i can comment a bit.

In term of the model, model the poly first! This gives you a shape type to use for high poly. You then create the high poly by using subdivision, mesh smoothing and shaping, and u can now use the high res to render the normal maps. thats two seperate textures, diffuse. and then a normal map. applying the normal maps to generate a high detail model it will make it way good looking but a lot lot less cost on the system. using a shader gives even better results.

Take a look at this :

http://www.gameartisans.org/gamecon/tutorials/tut_3.htm

it might help
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Post by vermeer »

[ first of all, I know am such pain in the... but...I'd say, just as a different possibility, not saying is better or that, just in case you could try and make the pectorals a bit taller... And probably serratus muscle a bit bigger would benefit as stands in comparison with latissimus dorsi (dorsal) that is good that it appears that powerful for this character(making a good bone-weights rig of it is...well, you'll see ;) But perfectly possible), but pectoral and serratus(exterior, specially) are probably too small (and there's one more group than in anatomy , in abdominals... the lower one must be way taller, indeed, "ombligo" should come upper, and that last division should dissappear ) ]

All that little comment is in case you'd like it to add, if not, is only I can't avoid it, happens with anatomy and proportions, can't stay with m y mouth shut. :oops:


Now to the question:

It depends a lot on:

a) your 3d tool of choice.
b) the way your brain deals with 3d ;)

I mean, there are point, nurbs , box modelers, and many other ways... You can achive it with any technique, though at the end you gotta deal with polygons and editing polies at fine tune level...
That is, you could model with nurbs, and at some stage convert to polygons and tweak.

I'd attack this sort of model with subdivs (what you call box model: I moedl since long with Wings Mirai's methods, which are based on edgel loops and other powerful operations, so is not only box modeling ) , as tends to give a lot of control, and helps with doing th einternal non detailed structure first, of rough volumes and go to the detail progressively. With subdivs you can achieve a very hi res detail (I've done) while keeping the model light, and way more under control.
I'd advice to do so, and at a very specific moment (in my case, when Wings starts to die, usually at a bunch of thousands polies) , you could import into Blender (or Zbrush) and do the hi res thing. After all that is for generating a tga we call normal map. Also, in my experience at least, dubdivs allow me to...once I have some thousand above the poly count I have been asigned fo rthe model, I stop there, and re-wire it so to make it game engine friendly, re-wire the joints for nice bending of shoulders, etc, and if I can, some organization that wont make it crazy to uv map. Always with quads and ngons. I only triangulate temporarily before export, and I tweak it a bit before export.

This way, once at that point, you have your game ready mesh. Then you continue, imho a lot yet can be done in Wings (or Silo, Modo, Maya, etc) to keep with the mesh control and the machine cpu and ram happy.
Once it's not so, and the kind of detail is not so optimal to add with Wings, then I jump into whatever the high detail modeler. I have Zbrush, but Blender with an average machine , allows doing the job. BTW, Blender can it easily half a million polies in a carppy machine. Ask that to most comercial modelers with same machine...am not a crazy fan, that is a fact.

Also, this way is more friendly with Blender's latest method(non stable build in graphicall.org) for doing tangent normal maps, (so, good for animated characters) , as is better if the low pol model adjust well to the later high detailed version of the model. But don't get constrained to it: may be faster and optimal to just , go to the hi res version with no worrying, and later retopo over the hi res (there's paint retopo and other ways available) , that is, you paint the wires over the mesh, the first one to have the hype about this was topology brush of Silo. I prefer the other way tho...But that's me.(indeed, retopo has some advantage...depending on how late you exported to zbrush...i mean, if basic volume masses are the same, no issues, if not, you may have to tweak the low version a bit so to match well the hi res...not an issue, tho )

I mean, you can, in the way, do whatever, use splines, nurbs, etc, tracing over the omages...Nothing is written in stone. Just if later you convert to polies is less controlable than subdivs. IMO.

And to make this model with subdivs, I'd go, load to "image planes" in Wings (or whatever similar in the tool u use) put left view (btw, I liked it) , and another for frontal. Notice how important would be tho that they matched every element in height, I tend to use guides for this, drawing all model views in same sheet... Still, I only model so when paid and forced to do so: I prefer to make a free drawing, and then base on it in my mind, and add or remove stuff as I go modeling. But bosses want ususally the other way. However.

So, you'd block those image planes, add any primitive, or just a plane, and do a cut , 9, for example for the edges, and roughly adapt the shape, and then some more cuts, etc, this part is to get a rogh shape...you extrude the silouhette, and go to left view (Z key ususally) and now is more of standard modeling, cutting etc, to go getting the mesh fit on that left view as well. You'd probably need also a top view, but as I say, when doing a free project, imo would be an over kill: you can capture it all, and after all, your drawing seems is not a written in stone design, for games, you can usually enrich it as you go...

Then use all the power that wings, mirai, silo, modo, etc, have for modeling, you have there more than enough.

I don't uv map in Wings, but in unwrap3d. Where the uv mapping power is really crazy. But I often do a test rig, very fast , of shoulders and some other delicate point before taking the task of uv mapping. When you reach the anim part, you will notice you'd have liked that the shoulders would have all degrees of rotation with no strangling.

But...you can model however you feel... Only counts the result, and of course, the time saved, and making it enjoiable...I only enjoy with things being not over complex ;) Modelling, uv mapping, texturing, rigging, and animating a hi highend character of this days is hard enough by itself ;)
With subdivs and other clever methods in other tasks, I keep enjoing it, tho is all quite a time consuming task , hehe.
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vermeer
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Post by vermeer »

cons: Less organic feel (I know it depends on the quality, but normally people use clothing, wrinkles, and props to diguise picky bits...)
Nope, you can achieve with polies methods stuff as smooth as you want. Is all in good vertex pushing and good handling of normals..
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dlangdev
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Post by dlangdev »

this is the book i was referring to, it contains pictures that could go into a wall texture, though.

i found some on google images and they seem to be ok.

Image
Image
lostanimator
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answer to vermeer

Post by lostanimator »

I uploaded the corrections, as I was still doubting between the horizontal divisions seen in the ref, and normal abdominal human divisions, which are actually as you say, I also thought pectorals were a little small compared to the rest, but I´m still not sure it looked worse.

it´s in http://www.caurium.com/irr/anubis_front_FIX.jpg

I think most of the tools you mention are part of Lightwave, I´m plannig to use our new max 2008 license, but I was considering blender or other free tools for support on issues that could be solved better in them, so I'll check your suggestions on this.

I´ve modelled both with nurbs and polygons, but I know it´s difficult to achieve good results with not many triangles. I'm aware of the dorsal being a pain in the ass when weighting, so that "is possible" could be a little more specific... if you wish

Thanks for a good constructive crit, saying it´s good doesn´t help but the growing ego...
christianclavet
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Post by christianclavet »

Hi. David.

You're right. I have all those tools in Lightwave. The problem is not in modeling, it's in rigging and exporting correctly to IRRlicht (My problem, perhaps other Lightwave users can do this better that me). The rigs that I produce are very basic and I have still problem exporting correctly an animated mesh to IRRlicht (Mostly bone influence and vertex weight maps that I have trouble with). Current mesh distord a lots when moving.

Modeling this with 3DS is a great idea (I plan to use it also). Have you considered using PolyBoost (http://www.polyboost.com/) with your 3DS? From what I've read and saw about it, it's very powerfull for low level and high level detail modeling. (I saw an Ubisoft Artist use it for a character modeling example). I'd create a base mesh in 3DS or other modeler witout muscle detail. Then load it in Zbrush for creating the muscle details (that will be baked in a normal/specular map)

You can check their site with video examples on the tool perform.
Last edited by christianclavet on Sat Jan 12, 2008 9:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
dlangdev
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Post by dlangdev »

what do you think of this texture quality?

i'm studying wang tiling at the moment and the simplified version could work, though.

i could of course create textures matching your game.

Image

Image
Last edited by dlangdev on Sat Jan 12, 2008 9:46 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Image
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