I'm aiming to start up an indie game company in the next few years. Currently looking into college classes for this fall, as well.
So the question I had to ask myself is if I should go take programming and graphics design classes, or is it more of a waste of time (and money) as long as you get the same end result from self-teaching?
I've taught myself some of the smaller languages, so I don't see the point in wasting a ton of money on programming classes I could teach myself in shorter amounts of time, for free, online.
Is college even important to make it in this multi-billion dollar business?
Is Education Needed?
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twilight17
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I voted yes, but didn't mean to!
I mean, if you could teach yourself for free and quicker then it is certainly not required. Just don't get distracted.
I mean, if you could teach yourself for free and quicker then it is certainly not required. Just don't get distracted.
Post this userbar I made on other websites to show your support for Irrlicht!
http://img147.imageshack.us/img147/1261 ... wernq4.png
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twilight17 wrote:I voted yes, but didn't mean to!
I mean, if you could teach yourself for free and quicker then it is certainly not required. Just don't get distracted.
well even with college you could get distracted, fail, and basically waste time AND money...
But is education in general even needed to be recognized, or is it just an over-hyped thought process that you need to have a degree to get a job in anything good.
You used the term education, but do you know the meaning of education?
Education in the Latin term is "To be guided." There is a guide assigned to you in order to see 'The Way.' To know the mysteries of 'The Way', you must see 'The Guide.'
If you want to learn on your own, you are going the path of Erudition, which is not bad. But there will come a time when you will become 'The Guide.'
If you're docile and willing to work with your guide, you can go to any school of your choosing and stay there. But if you're the rebel who cannot be guided, then prepare yourself to have a hard time learning by yourself.
Bottomline, that's how it was back then and now education has evolved to something that generates money. Think about corporation and profit come to mind here.
"caveat emptor"
Education in the Latin term is "To be guided." There is a guide assigned to you in order to see 'The Way.' To know the mysteries of 'The Way', you must see 'The Guide.'
If you want to learn on your own, you are going the path of Erudition, which is not bad. But there will come a time when you will become 'The Guide.'
If you're docile and willing to work with your guide, you can go to any school of your choosing and stay there. But if you're the rebel who cannot be guided, then prepare yourself to have a hard time learning by yourself.
Bottomline, that's how it was back then and now education has evolved to something that generates money. Think about corporation and profit come to mind here.
"caveat emptor"
Last edited by dlangdev on Mon Jun 01, 2009 9:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
dlangdev wrote:You used the term education, but do you know the meaning of education?
Education in the Latin term is "To be guided." There is a guide assigned to you in order to see 'The Way.' To know the mysteries 'The Way', you must see 'The Guide.'
If you want to learn on your own, you are going the path of Erudition, which is not bad. But there will come a time when you will become 'The Guide.'
Bottomline, that's how it was back then and now education has evolved to something that generates money.
very nicely put. (though i was more referring to the modern version of education
)But a college degree is more something that you have to have to prove to people you just met that you can do this. For things such as a job interview for a big corporate business. People aren't going to accept you right away because you have nothing to show for it.
... and while typing this post I more or less realized that since I'm starting my own small company - there will be no actual need to show anyone that I can do it before I get hired.
i'm going to be harsh. harsh but true.
you're going to fail at this "start my own indie game company" plan. while starting and indie game company is becoming more likely than it used to be, statistically speaking it's still almost inevitable that you fail.
so when you fail you're going to need to find a job .... and go for an interview .... and have a college degree.
go to college. take a joint degree in business and computers. you'll be more likely to succeed in your indie company (and don't get me wrong, i'm not discouraging you from trying - even if you fail it will be a great experience and you'll learn some valuable information), plus you'll have a nice resume to get a job at a company.
disclaimer: my 2 cents. don't be offended. i'm not clairvoyant and don't know everything. just trying to give some (what i believe to be) useful advice.
you're going to fail at this "start my own indie game company" plan. while starting and indie game company is becoming more likely than it used to be, statistically speaking it's still almost inevitable that you fail.
so when you fail you're going to need to find a job .... and go for an interview .... and have a college degree.
go to college. take a joint degree in business and computers. you'll be more likely to succeed in your indie company (and don't get me wrong, i'm not discouraging you from trying - even if you fail it will be a great experience and you'll learn some valuable information), plus you'll have a nice resume to get a job at a company.
disclaimer: my 2 cents. don't be offended. i'm not clairvoyant and don't know everything. just trying to give some (what i believe to be) useful advice.
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FuzzYspo0N
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aanderse, whilst i dont disagree that starting your own company is a bad thing (its very ambitious, that is what i mean) i can dispute everything else you say
I currently work in the game industry thanks to my (kind of crappy) portfolio. A company saw that i made an effort i suppose, and asked for an interview. When they saw i COULD make games (and not uselessly clammer out technical terms) they hired me. You WILL learn over 900000 times more at an internship, then you ever will at college. Colleges give you papers, and i dont actually feel they are as necessary as they used to be.
That said, i do think its a good idea to get a degree. Not that its contradicting what i just said, i am living proof that you dont need a degree to get a job (ie : i was kicked out of university as well) so i do speak from experience. The thing with a degree is that you will stand out as committed, dedicated and if you do well, diligent. The point of getting a degree is far beyond the scope of LEARNING. anyone with the internet can know more than 1000 professors, and i bet if you put a student up against someone with the internet, the internet user will make a hell of a lot more games, much faster.
Starting the company IS a cool idea, sure its actually every game developers dream i think (dont quote me on that) but the point is, its not in your scope. Some things you might think about first are a) do you have any successful games behind you b) have you done anything meaningful in terms of making games (so that people can take your work as respectable and not some forums abuser) and c) that you can actually make games. Management, financial issues, scope, planning scheduling, clients, production, MAKING THE ACTUAL GAMES. Theres a million reasons you need a hell of a lot of experience, and NO real reason to start you own company.
I suggest making a game. Make a portfolioi, prototype a few good ideas and POLISH POLISH POLISH them. Find a company near you, or drive far/move closer to be able to apply, and ask a game development company if you can intern. Even for a month. If you can make games, and they can afford to, they will hire you. Its not rocket science, its a matter of skills needed / people available (imo).
If you do have the skills, you become an asset. If you have a degree, you stand above the crowd of non-degree holders except the ones who spent time making games and not studying.
I dont think the company idea is bad, i just dont think you understand the massive scope of it (and, keeping it alive). I speak from very close experience with all of the situations above, and if you want references ill link you to LONG articles abotu SUCCESSFUL companies that started and fell apart (and these are industry giants, not kids in high school). Those guys know what they are talking about, and as MANY of them have advised me, get experience first. get under someone who knows what they doing, and can boost you. Learn as much as you can, and start small.
You cant go from beginner to experienced veteran in a short time, but in the short time you will learn way more than you ever will by failing at trying to do the company thing.
Again, just an opinion but iv fought these battles, and i could not be happier working for a company by starting as an intern. Iv been there, and iv done it. I dont have a degree, and i dont have a TON of experience, but i did have a passion and want to learn. i hope it helps you to see where im coming from, rather than flame me for speaking out (that goes to everyone), and now i have got the job of my dreams over at www.lumaarcade.com and iv never been happier.
I wouldnt even imagine of starting company that only makes games until i have a name to work with in the industry, and i am confidant that i can pull it off (and not fall apart like the other millions of game developers).
Then again, you can do what you feel is best for you, and if you think you can do it then do it. Do it well, do it hard and fight for survival. And maybe you make it through maybe you dont, but BOTH ways you learned a lot.
Hindsight is 20/20, but foresight is the master of success.
I currently work in the game industry thanks to my (kind of crappy) portfolio. A company saw that i made an effort i suppose, and asked for an interview. When they saw i COULD make games (and not uselessly clammer out technical terms) they hired me. You WILL learn over 900000 times more at an internship, then you ever will at college. Colleges give you papers, and i dont actually feel they are as necessary as they used to be.
That said, i do think its a good idea to get a degree. Not that its contradicting what i just said, i am living proof that you dont need a degree to get a job (ie : i was kicked out of university as well) so i do speak from experience. The thing with a degree is that you will stand out as committed, dedicated and if you do well, diligent. The point of getting a degree is far beyond the scope of LEARNING. anyone with the internet can know more than 1000 professors, and i bet if you put a student up against someone with the internet, the internet user will make a hell of a lot more games, much faster.
Starting the company IS a cool idea, sure its actually every game developers dream i think (dont quote me on that) but the point is, its not in your scope. Some things you might think about first are a) do you have any successful games behind you b) have you done anything meaningful in terms of making games (so that people can take your work as respectable and not some forums abuser) and c) that you can actually make games. Management, financial issues, scope, planning scheduling, clients, production, MAKING THE ACTUAL GAMES. Theres a million reasons you need a hell of a lot of experience, and NO real reason to start you own company.
I suggest making a game. Make a portfolioi, prototype a few good ideas and POLISH POLISH POLISH them. Find a company near you, or drive far/move closer to be able to apply, and ask a game development company if you can intern. Even for a month. If you can make games, and they can afford to, they will hire you. Its not rocket science, its a matter of skills needed / people available (imo).
If you do have the skills, you become an asset. If you have a degree, you stand above the crowd of non-degree holders except the ones who spent time making games and not studying.
I dont think the company idea is bad, i just dont think you understand the massive scope of it (and, keeping it alive). I speak from very close experience with all of the situations above, and if you want references ill link you to LONG articles abotu SUCCESSFUL companies that started and fell apart (and these are industry giants, not kids in high school). Those guys know what they are talking about, and as MANY of them have advised me, get experience first. get under someone who knows what they doing, and can boost you. Learn as much as you can, and start small.
You cant go from beginner to experienced veteran in a short time, but in the short time you will learn way more than you ever will by failing at trying to do the company thing.
Again, just an opinion but iv fought these battles, and i could not be happier working for a company by starting as an intern. Iv been there, and iv done it. I dont have a degree, and i dont have a TON of experience, but i did have a passion and want to learn. i hope it helps you to see where im coming from, rather than flame me for speaking out (that goes to everyone), and now i have got the job of my dreams over at www.lumaarcade.com and iv never been happier.
I wouldnt even imagine of starting company that only makes games until i have a name to work with in the industry, and i am confidant that i can pull it off (and not fall apart like the other millions of game developers).
Then again, you can do what you feel is best for you, and if you think you can do it then do it. Do it well, do it hard and fight for survival. And maybe you make it through maybe you dont, but BOTH ways you learned a lot.
Hindsight is 20/20, but foresight is the master of success.
FuzzYsp00n,
a good reply with some nice advice. i can't really argue too much of it - i also work in the computer industry and don't have a computer science degree (i do have a degree, but completely unrelated to computers).
i think my biggest issue with your reply is that i assume you are a rare case. i assume most successful people who work in the gaming industry have some sort of education or credentials. not all, but most. i also assume you're a pretty exceptionally bright guy. you may have been one of those kids in high school who got annoyed when your teacher marked your correct answer as wrong because you jumped all the steps and just went right to the end - you were smart enough to do so. is QuantamSK exceptional? maybe, maybe not. no clue. if he's not exceptional (smart, talented, but not exceptional) and doesn't get a degree it might end up pretty terrible for him. but either way if he gets a degree he'll be set.
i dunno. tough call. good discussion. but i think i still recommend college - it's only a couple years, its fun, and even while at college you can learn all you want on the internet for free as well.
if anyone else has some nice information or stories to share like fuzzies i'd love to hear it. i think we could get some great posts going here
ps. i don't know anything about the gaming industry hence when i talked about it i said "i assume" because thats how it is in other fields
a good reply with some nice advice. i can't really argue too much of it - i also work in the computer industry and don't have a computer science degree (i do have a degree, but completely unrelated to computers).
i think my biggest issue with your reply is that i assume you are a rare case. i assume most successful people who work in the gaming industry have some sort of education or credentials. not all, but most. i also assume you're a pretty exceptionally bright guy. you may have been one of those kids in high school who got annoyed when your teacher marked your correct answer as wrong because you jumped all the steps and just went right to the end - you were smart enough to do so. is QuantamSK exceptional? maybe, maybe not. no clue. if he's not exceptional (smart, talented, but not exceptional) and doesn't get a degree it might end up pretty terrible for him. but either way if he gets a degree he'll be set.
i dunno. tough call. good discussion. but i think i still recommend college - it's only a couple years, its fun, and even while at college you can learn all you want on the internet for free as well.
if anyone else has some nice information or stories to share like fuzzies i'd love to hear it. i think we could get some great posts going here
ps. i don't know anything about the gaming industry hence when i talked about it i said "i assume" because thats how it is in other fields
Going to college is not all that bad as you might not get the education you see fit.
College is a time to learn and also a place to meet your future partners. When I went to college, I met a lot of people who later on formed their own companies and I was lucky to be part of it.
Now, you say you will start your own, that's really good. I'd say you will need to establish a connection to a society of 'something' related to your business. Note the term *society* is simply a term used to describe a group of like-minded friends. So, You need to be part of that society who are going to support you.
Again, let me cite one advantage of going to a _good_ and _reputable_ school. When I graduated, there is a fraternity outside of that place and you know what? That brotherhood is out there looking out for you... covering your back.
Say you don't want any of it, that's fine too. Anyone can make it big, it's not about Education that will carry you up there. I remember someone telling me Education was only 20% of it. The other 80% is entirely outside of Education--it's experience.
Experience is the best teacher.
College is a time to learn and also a place to meet your future partners. When I went to college, I met a lot of people who later on formed their own companies and I was lucky to be part of it.
Now, you say you will start your own, that's really good. I'd say you will need to establish a connection to a society of 'something' related to your business. Note the term *society* is simply a term used to describe a group of like-minded friends. So, You need to be part of that society who are going to support you.
Again, let me cite one advantage of going to a _good_ and _reputable_ school. When I graduated, there is a fraternity outside of that place and you know what? That brotherhood is out there looking out for you... covering your back.
Say you don't want any of it, that's fine too. Anyone can make it big, it's not about Education that will carry you up there. I remember someone telling me Education was only 20% of it. The other 80% is entirely outside of Education--it's experience.
Experience is the best teacher.
Long post, if you don't wish to read it, or don't have time, go ahead and skip.
first, not offended at all... I know not to jump into things head first, nor do i have the thought that it's an easy venture. My father is an entrepreuner for copiers and printers, been doing it for over 20 years now. He and I have chatted about what it takes to get a company started. I know what I'm getting into. Oh, and he's losing business left and right from his customers filing bankruptcy due to the crap economy - his business is quickly falling, and he is losing more money than he can make now.
and second, that is more or less what I planned on doing anyways, with college. I was asking if taking classes to get a degree in the computer field is necessary. I know I will have to have a second source of income - especially if life throws a family my way in the course of the next few years. I already planned on taking classes in the Psychology field - something I know I would be good at. I have a fall back plan, but I know that as long as I stick with it for the first few years and get the ball rolling, that it is entirely possible.
It's more or less how determined and passionate you are about what you are doing that makes or breaks the start of a business, and how much time you are able to put forth into it.
Also, I don't plan on biting off more than I can chew, I'll stick with the basics and work from there. I don't plan on making a ton of money the second I start it up, or even in the first year or two after I've started a portfolio of games I've worked on single-handily.
It's hard, but far from impossible. The reason most of these groups fail is because they don't look at it as a business like every other field there is. You need to take it seriously and be willing to go that extra 10% when times get tough. Which I plan to do (I'd hate myself otherwise)
Thanks for the great replies, btw.
I guess I neglected to point out that this is something I'm planning for the future, not expecting to jump right into it next week.
EDIT: FuzzySpoon, if you have any links that could help out, by all means - post them for me! No reason to wait to start learning.
aanderse wrote:i'm going to be harsh. harsh but true.
you're going to fail at this "start my own indie game company" plan. while starting and indie game company is becoming more likely than it used to be, statistically speaking it's still almost inevitable that you fail.
so when you fail you're going to need to find a job .... and go for an interview .... and have a college degree.
go to college. take a joint degree in business and computers. you'll be more likely to succeed in your indie company (and don't get me wrong, i'm not discouraging you from trying - even if you fail it will be a great experience and you'll learn some valuable information), plus you'll have a nice resume to get a job at a company.
disclaimer: my 2 cents. don't be offended. i'm not clairvoyant and don't know everything. just trying to give some (what i believe to be) useful advice.
first, not offended at all... I know not to jump into things head first, nor do i have the thought that it's an easy venture. My father is an entrepreuner for copiers and printers, been doing it for over 20 years now. He and I have chatted about what it takes to get a company started. I know what I'm getting into
. Oh, and he's losing business left and right from his customers filing bankruptcy due to the crap economy - his business is quickly falling, and he is losing more money than he can make now.and second, that is more or less what I planned on doing anyways, with college. I was asking if taking classes to get a degree in the computer field is necessary. I know I will have to have a second source of income - especially if life throws a family my way in the course of the next few years. I already planned on taking classes in the Psychology field - something I know I would be good at. I have a fall back plan, but I know that as long as I stick with it for the first few years and get the ball rolling, that it is entirely possible.
It's more or less how determined and passionate you are about what you are doing that makes or breaks the start of a business, and how much time you are able to put forth into it.
Also, I don't plan on biting off more than I can chew, I'll stick with the basics and work from there. I don't plan on making a ton of money the second I start it up, or even in the first year or two after I've started a portfolio of games I've worked on single-handily.
It's hard, but far from impossible. The reason most of these groups fail is because they don't look at it as a business like every other field there is. You need to take it seriously and be willing to go that extra 10% when times get tough. Which I plan to do (I'd hate myself otherwise)
Already know all this. And though I say I'm wanting to start an indie company does not imply that I'll be neglecting any of these aspects, or even starting it anytime soon (talking about your future doesn't mean tomorrow or even next year). I know that I have to start at the bottom.FuzzySpoon wrote:a) do you have any successful games behind you b) have you done anything meaningful in terms of making games (so that people can take your work as respectable and not some forums abuser) and c) that you can actually make games. Management, financial issues, scope, planning scheduling, clients, production, MAKING THE ACTUAL GAMES.
I can think of one reason, that without barely any game company would be out there: Having final say in how a game turns out. When you work for someone else, that's exactly it - you work for them, not with them, to create the game. You are nothing but a this decade's factory worker, assembling the parts of someone else's idea. I don't want that.FuzzySpoon wrote:Theres a million reasons you need a hell of a lot of experience, and NO real reason to start you own company.
The thing is, I do understand the massive scope of it all. Which is why I'm looking at the future before deciding on college degrees. I never jump head first into something without finding out what I'm getting into. I know it's not going to be easy. I don't plan or expect it to be easy. But if nobody did something that was hard, we would probably not even exist today.Fuzzy again wrote:I dont think the company idea is bad, i just dont think you understand the massive scope of it (and, keeping it alive).
Thanks for the great replies, btw.
I guess I neglected to point out that this is something I'm planning for the future, not expecting to jump right into it next week.
EDIT: FuzzySpoon, if you have any links that could help out, by all means - post them for me! No reason to wait to start learning.
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FuzzYspo0N
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This is, at least where i work, ENTIRELY untrue. There are companies like that but you are supposed to use intellect and savvy when choosing a position at a company, if you choose a job where you have no say dont complainWhen you work for someone else, that's exactly it - you work for them, not with them, to create the game. You are nothing but a this decade's factory worker, assembling the parts of someone else's idea. I don't want that.
Although its not always possible to choose BETTER, per se...The experience is > than the sometimes, not so much fun path. I dont enjoy studying certain subjects yet we have to. Doesnt mean we can skip it and start our own college courses either. Submission and team work are far important to becoming a successful leader
I understand this isn't true for all jobs in this department. But it is true for a good portion of them.FuzzYspo0N wrote:This is, at least where i work, ENTIRELY untrue. There are companies like that but you are supposed to use intellect and savvy when choosing a position at a company, if you choose a job where you have no say dont complainWhen you work for someone else, that's exactly it - you work for them, not with them, to create the game. You are nothing but a this decade's factory worker, assembling the parts of someone else's idea. I don't want that.
I'm still going to start my own small company, there's not much that could sway my decision. As a second job, obviously - relying on making games the second you start out is a horrible idea.
So, college seems to be a requirement, but what classes specifically would you recommend I look into?
I'm great in any math-or-science based field, and I'm able to learn most things pretty quickly, so there's not much I can't do with some effort. The overall plan would to be a game designer, and programming is another key point for me. I would love to dip into the 3D modeling area too.
I think you should have a good idea for a game or two before you start you own company. A few guys I know from shool did an online RPG in their free time while studying and when it came to finishing for them they thought "let's try to turn it into a company" and it worked. But they had a good game and a lot of users already before they even thought about making it commercial.
Dustbin::Games on the web: https://www.dustbin-online.de/
Dustbin::Games on facebook: https://www.facebook.com/dustbingames/
Dustbin::Games on twitter: https://twitter.com/dustbingames
Dustbin::Games on facebook: https://www.facebook.com/dustbingames/
Dustbin::Games on twitter: https://twitter.com/dustbingames
Bearing in mind it could take a few years to become successful, do you have a way of maintaining yourself in the meantime? I think that is the most important issue. If you have parents willing to keep you, or a part time job or something you like, and you definitely have the skills to succeed, I say go for it right now.
My own aim is to start out doing something on my own. But I went to university for several reasons: it puts off the time of trying to start out on my own for a few years (during which I can do gamedev in my spare time and improve my skills), keeps my parents happy (so now I've just finished university I'm going to live off them for a year while I try to start various projects), and also in case I fail at starting out on my own, then the degree is something that might help getting a "proper" job.
Also, although a lot of university was quite easy considering I already had much experience, I found I was forced to learn some things that will probably be useful that I would never have bothered to learn on my own (e.g. design patterns, development methodologies)
but once again, if I had had a bearable part time job, or rich parents to live off(!), then I would certainly not have gone on to further education! So I think the answer depends on your personal situation.
My own aim is to start out doing something on my own. But I went to university for several reasons: it puts off the time of trying to start out on my own for a few years (during which I can do gamedev in my spare time and improve my skills), keeps my parents happy (so now I've just finished university I'm going to live off them for a year while I try to start various projects), and also in case I fail at starting out on my own, then the degree is something that might help getting a "proper" job.
Also, although a lot of university was quite easy considering I already had much experience, I found I was forced to learn some things that will probably be useful that I would never have bothered to learn on my own (e.g. design patterns, development methodologies)
but once again, if I had had a bearable part time job, or rich parents to live off(!), then I would certainly not have gone on to further education! So I think the answer depends on your personal situation.