Irrlicht vs Ogre

Discuss about anything related to the Irrlicht Engine, or read announcements about any significant features or usage changes.
Oz
Posts: 81
Joined: Tue Aug 31, 2004 3:34 pm

Post by Oz »

Yeah Electron I agree. (about the forums)

One reason I chose IrrLicht is simply because the community seems to be friendly and understanding.
You can ask questions here that if you asked in another forum you'd get your head bitten off. (They think "I think that should be known by everyone, so why doesnt he/she know it?" and they forget, we all learn the same way. Slowly and by example. Monkey see, monkey do?)

Or maybe they are born with such hidden knowledge? I wasnt :(
"When we looked at the relics of the precursors, we saw what heights civilization can attain.
When we looked at their ruins, we marked the danger of that height." -Keeper Annals
(Thief2: The Metal Age)
Sean Doherty
Posts: 40
Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2004 12:21 am

Post by Sean Doherty »

Oz,

That was a typing mistake. I find Irrlicht to be newbie friendly; OGRE not so much.

Sorry

Please see my corrected post.
Sean Doherty, BCS
www.FreelanceGames.com
Oz
Posts: 81
Joined: Tue Aug 31, 2004 3:34 pm

Post by Oz »

Thats perfectly alright sean! Dont worry about it buddy, were just mulling ideas.
If you look at the a number of open source engines, the initial creators often stop working on the products because there was no ROI in developing a free product. Many times, they get a job inside the commercial game industry or they start the next next version of there engines, usually this time targeted at the commercial audience.
This is a good point, if you ask me. The hard bit is making a demo to show them (here is what I can do)
And Irrlicht makes that more straight-forward IMHO

I finally figured out how to edit posts too. You learn something new every day, huh? :wink:
"When we looked at the relics of the precursors, we saw what heights civilization can attain.
When we looked at their ruins, we marked the danger of that height." -Keeper Annals
(Thief2: The Metal Age)
vermeer
Posts: 2017
Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2004 3:22 pm
Contact:

Post by vermeer »

I have been in loads of comunities, and must say this one is one of th emost gentle and friendly. Maybe the best I have found, in that.


About open source and AAA comercial games companies. Those are two different worlds.

In general, yep, a comercial big house will only count on expensive tools like Max and Maya(sorry ,I 'm just a 2d/3d artist) , and for code, only hard worked c++ solutions by extremely good employees. If there's no time, they may buy a kickass physics library, etc, but... in many cases, open source ones are used.

But that's another world, I've been there. No time for anything, uber high pressures all the time, each worker has just some repetitive task, and all the fun is often removed.

Open source solutions, like open engines, and art tools like Wings3d and Blender, give the indy coder the ability to do explendid projects at home, and at his/her own will, doing very personal and creative productions.

It has been done, maybe smaller than an AAA game, projects with this tools, that surpass quality of aaa games, just they can't compete in volume. Is not the same to have an army of artist behind you than having a friend that may be extremely good at it, but he's only one. If u know your limits you will do small wonders , anyway. And I am one of those not worried for the size ;)


There are examples that would show you why in certain aspects, open source even has surpassed (while it is not the main idea!) comercial tools. Several very good professionals of CG art, in companies, have preferred to model their organic charcaters with Wings. I did in companies, but I am thinking now in Maya, XSI artists. I am not saying Wings is bettter in modelling than those, just that...art can be done ALLWAYS. I can draw something with a raw pencil , and do art, and can be not too inspired other day, use my expensive oils, and maybe do something not so good. If I am overpressured in a game company, and my criteria is changed every day or not taken in consideration for marketting rules, constant changes, etc...There's loads of artwork of bad quality in aaa games. I have seen too many human models with bad proportions, bad skinning , terrible deformation...even in very well known games. Most people do not notice, anyway.

I have seen very good games done with free alternatives, with free tools. And extremely good art make with Blender and wings.

I would only agree with you in one point. There's no way a Blender/wings/[and insert free engine here] could compete with an stablished company of an army of workers, using the blazing quick tool called Max and very good/expensive/ended comercial engine...

But the aim is not compete with those, but you can still make pieces of art that, bein smaller, if done with more ...ehm...love, can be more enjoying, though usually smaller. I personally prefer these little jewells. Lately comercial games (special corps, world war 2 games, etc) are boring me incredibly. Even I find my self preferring to test an amateur special corps game... as...well, at least I check that the comercial pressures weren't there imposing all...

There are sometimes that an open source project (game, engine, art tool) has not enough strenght behind to survive. But lately I am seing that then, the comunity helps and share the weight with the author, or even just they continue.

SOmehow, I have seen game companies (recently and AAA one that has broken, incredibly, I had a friend there) , or 3d tools companies fall strongly and disapear. Your tool can suffer this. Is depending only on high quantities of money, and that's not so easy to maintain.Usually , open source depends on a a group of enjoying individuals, and they don't even have to be the same ones all the time....

Blender is proving that. I'd agree that these projects cannot compete with the high tools and standards. I have heard and seen write in forums the opposite and is absurd, crazy. Imho believing that can lead to strong disconnections with real facts.

In the past, only chance for someone wanting to make indy games, or hobby art, was pirate something. Now you have a more gentle and nice way.
I modeled wings at much more speed than my mate at the game job, and he was using Maya and Max. Why? well, because probably at the end Wings is reallly quick in organic modelling . Or maybe I had been more dedicated to organic models than him. I am not saying I wasn't better than him or something, just that you'd be surprised of what can be done with an open source tool if it is good...

But I'd agree that putting open source as a world that, in videogames, can compete seriously with the big companies and its expensive software...would be to carry it way far...

wings, blender, have loads of stuff they plainly CAN'T do , and which you need both in artwork, and videogames. Same with engines. Today AAA standards are crazily high...doing a game of that quality anyway, with all those super high res count models, is now getting too similar to a big film production, there's no way an independent team (and I have seem some of excellent quality; beware, there are some kickass pros that love to do an indy personal and creative project on weekends; the quality is ensured, but the size and number of levels, etc , is smaller) can do such amount in a one or two year time frame.


Basicly, I find very interesting to hear voices like yours in open source comunities. As otherwise, some people can end up taking open source as a religion, and thing their particular open source project will rule the world, and the truth is very different and I prefer often much more intermediate concepts. IMO, open source is not bad, is good, is just not up to the task to beat those expensive things, but as it can beat it in some quality aspects, it will allow to make very nice things, as have aready done.
Finally making games again!
http://www.konekogames.com
bal
Posts: 829
Joined: Fri Jun 18, 2004 5:19 pm
Location: Geluwe, Belgium

Post by bal »

Irrlicht's activity has grown a lot. When I first started with Irrlicht (May-Juin 2004), there were several days without a message on the boards. Now there is a post at least every half hour. And I think it will keep growing.
General Tools List
General FAQ
System: AMD Barton 2600+, 512MB, 9600XT 256MB, WinXP + FC3
Tyn
Posts: 932
Joined: Thu Nov 20, 2003 7:53 pm
Location: England
Contact:

Post by Tyn »

I think because of the image ( right or wrong ) that Irrlicht is a beginners engine has lead to more people coming here to learn the trade somewhat. Some move on when they learn enough to other engines, some like me just stick around and continue using the engine. Either way, most people will be friendly and help when they can because they had the same help here when they were feeling out the engine.

It is unlikely anyone would recieve the same level of help as here in Ogre and that is not knocking their community. The base of people there are more advanced in their learning and ability than here and so some simple questions that would get answered here would not be answered in other forums.
timmy
Posts: 34
Joined: Wed Jul 14, 2004 2:48 am

Post by timmy »

i started using lirrlicht and now i use ogre, simply because irrlicht and large terrain's do not mix ....ogre slays irrlicht to the point it is almost funny when it comes to large terrain rendering
Electron
Posts: 874
Joined: Sun Mar 14, 2004 12:05 am
Location: Massachusetts USA

Post by Electron »

I believe LOD is coming in 0.7. Ogre may still be faster, but that should certainly help irrlicht's terrain rendering.
You do a lot of programming? Really? I try to get some in, but the debugging keeps me pretty busy.

Crucible of Stars
quark

Post by quark »

Sean Doherty wrote: Generally, speaking I don't believe in Open Source; sure it would be great if we could all work on exactly what we want and we didn't have to worry about money. However, until we catch up with a Star Trek like society that is not the case. Therefore, I actually prefer products that are not free.
You are thinking in the wrong way. Open Source doesn't mean that something has to be free of charge, or that you have to do something for free.

Open Source is source code which is open to see it. You can look at it, change it, or propose something to be changed. It's all about your security and improvements.
Guest

Post by Guest »

As for closed source applications and security. Look at internet explorer.
Its a security nightmare! lol
timmy
Posts: 34
Joined: Wed Jul 14, 2004 2:48 am

Post by timmy »

Electron wrote:I believe LOD is coming in 0.7. Ogre may still be faster, but that should certainly help irrlicht's terrain rendering.
i hope so because i actually prefered using irrlicht.
AssiDragon
Posts: 158
Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2004 11:03 am
Location: Hungary
Contact:

Post by AssiDragon »

quark wrote: You are thinking in the wrong way. Open Source doesn't mean that something has to be free of charge, or that you have to do something for free.
Care to tell if something is opensource, how do you get money in from it? If I want it, I just get teh source and compile it for myself without paying anything.
Staring through eyes of hate we kill
Are we controlled, or is our own will...?
(Edguy)
Guest

Post by Guest »

I think that irrlitch is much better than ogre for commercial pojects, yep, in future irrlitch will have a lot of new features like shaders that are comming in 0.7. If you make an Ogre commercial poject you have to upload all the source, not only the change you made to ogre, ALL the game source too, and that i think that it is not very.... good.. With irrlitch you can make anything you want and you dont have to do anything
Robomaniac
Posts: 602
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2003 2:03 am
Location: Pottstown, PA
Contact:

Post by Robomaniac »

Thats wrong. If you release a commercial game with ogre, you just have to release your changes to ogre, if any. Since the game doesn't add anything to the engine (besides any modifications you might have), it isn't concidered a derivative work, and you don't have to release your source. If you wrote something like Ogre Engine 2 urself using ogre1's code, you'd have to release it, but not your games source
The Robomaniac
Project Head / Lead Programmer
Centaur Force
Guest

Post by Guest »

uops I read bad haha
Post Reply