i think irrlicht is great but what it seriously lacks is a better art pipeline. it doesn't make sense to support lots of outdated formats like md2.
there has to be support for a format which supports exporting shadow mapped levels and animated models from applications like 3dsmax, maya,...
if i remember correctly i read somewhere that full support for the .x format is planned but i (and many others) think the .x format is crap. it's an ugly over-complicated template driven monstrosity which isn't easy to parse if you want to be multiplatform like irrlicht. also most .x exporters for the popular 3d-applications i came across are very buggy and not well supported.
so my suggestion is to look into the collada format (www.collada.org). it looks promising and since it's supported by companies like alias, discreet, softimage,... there should be good support for it. it would be great if irrlicht supported it!
or maybe an own mesh format for irrlicht would be better? like ogre3d has?
you should have read the design document..or at least the introduction...to collada:
First of all, this is an interchange format, not a game engine format. We assume that the format will be beneficial to authoring tool users and interactive application content creation pipelines. We assume that most interactive applications will use COLLADA in the production pipeline, but not as a final delivery mechanism. For example most games will use proprietary size optimized binary files.
oh and it doesnt even support animation yet only static scenes.
collada doesn't already contain ready for use vertex buffers or something like that but this doesn't mean that it isn't suited for games. i think it would be suited very well for being supported by irrlicht. many of the other formats irrlicht currently supports (3ds, obj,...) aren't game formats either. when i looked at the xml specs collada seemed to be a very cool format to me (extendable xml, vertex / pixel shader support,...).
were did you read that collada doesn't support animation? collada wouldn't make much sense if it didn't.
i just think .x isn't the future. i started this thread to discuss what would be best for irrlicht. i am not sure if collada or a custom format (something like zdimitor did) would be best for irrlicht.
Anonymous wrote:
were did you read that collada doesn't support animation? collada wouldn't make much sense if it didn't.
in the document its clearly stated that no support for animations is in it YET. it is planned to have it in v1.1.0 of the collada specs for which i found no planned release date. though i didnt really try to find one as i thought that without support for animations its just not suited at least at the moment.
and, on a sidenote, i think that what they wrote about using a binary format for games/endproducts really does make sense because xml (as an example) just bloats the files beyond anything acceptable.
just my personal opinion of course.
i did think about zipped xml files too but all it would help is keeping the diskspace low..it would really only add to the "badness" because additionally to all the conversions (from ascii/utf to binary) you would have to decompress stuff additionally
regarding to what i think what should be done...look into the irrlichtnx forum (development thread in discussion board) and wiki (bigpicture) to see what i think.
I think that eventually Irrlicht should have it's own mesh format (though I think that unlike Ogre the converters should be from the formats, not plugins for specific packages as that is more limiting).
My views about Collada:
1) It looks as though it could be useful, though perhaps not complete yet. If you want to write a collda mesh loader for irrlicht go ahead. I'm sure some people will use it.
2) I don't view it as a .x replacement. I am generally happy with .x (though compatibility problems between apps can be annoying), and if Irrlicht supported all it's features I'd be even happier. It is Microsoft, so of course it's complicated, but I don't find the need to do much hand editing of the files myself. Collada support for Max, Maya is all very well, but a lot of us around here use free tools and I personally have never used a tool with collada support. It may become more widespread in the future, but I think collada support is fairly limited at the moment. In contrast, many packages (including almost all commercial ones and many free ones) have .x support. Blender, especially, comes to mind. Also lithunwrap and DeleD.
I don't mean to totally denounce collada, I just think that by the time it even has any chance of becoming a .x replacement Irrlicht will have it's own mesh format (of course a converter from collada to irr format could be written).
You do a lot of programming? Really? I try to get some in, but the debugging keeps me pretty busy.
I think you just don't know how to handle x format files(or the 3d tools), in general.
I used it in plenty of projects, knowing my stuff found no problems, no more than the usual ones with any format.
I exported with the max 5 and 6 trials, and made it work in several engines and viewers.
I helped the artwork pipeline for several other engines: ie, today, thanks to my help, is the pipeline for several users using Ultimate Unwrap animation converter to convert x to other engine formats. It worked like charm, perfectly.
I have used very succesfully export of my bones and weights animated character models, main players, in x format etc, from my purchased XSI, from Blender and the also free Jox x exporter. I have used it successfully with Character Fx native x exporter. In jobs, I have used Maya and Max X exporter.I've been reported people having full satisfaction of it using Lightwave x exporters, Maya, Hash Animation Master ones.
I think you just don't know how to handle it well.
Beware most people don't have uber expensive tools, or just choose not to use warez(Max , Maya "versions"). Is a personal decission.
I only agree in one point, but which anyway leads to no solution: binary , inhouse made formats are way quicker, yes. I know as I have worked in game companies(as a game artist), and know that too well. yep, ok. But simply: no other format supporting both free, cheap (don't forget GamesSpace from caligari, Truespace+gamepak, 3D canvas from Amabilis, Milkshape(even), Character Fx(just 15$), and several others) ..besides unaffordable, highly expensive highend tools are *extremly* well supported with FREE x plugins(as I said, Panda worked perfect for me with Max trial after just some tries...).... As I said, I have used it totally succesfully in both highend packages, cheap ones and free ones like Blender.
FBX for example, has the problem that is not available for any free tool. (just Wings, but no animation, of course) besides, I already tested, and while FBX in max 6 works great and is quite useful, in Max 5 has its problems. Even installing the same version of Max 6 (checked to see if it was a matter of the fbx version)
You speak about open source format (indeed, you can use x in any platform, is been explained several times) but still, x supports way more free tools that any other format...
I guess you weren't to succesful in your handling -I suppose you are a 3d artist like me- of x files with your Max or whatever you use. But it's plainly wrong to say it does not work. True that you in most cases need to do a resave (Ultimate Unwrap export is imported with no problems, directly, i was reported about that) in the free mview tool, but EVERY format has its challenge. I have been in 3d quite long years to know that. Even in house made solutions tend to have their problems.
Conclussion: While I agree a conversion of x format to an optimized binary irrlicht format would be ideal, I don't agree in anyway that there's other bones and weights format so standard and so spread and tested, sorry.
Indeed, before supporting that collada thing, I'd recommend using the doom3 free format MD5, which indeed is so much well thought for games, indeed, is the one using in a quite AAA game...and guess Id Software have some experience.
What I have been told by coders is md5 is quite better for a programmer in advanced stuff (specially, converting animation to a native engine binary format, which would be my proposal) than x, but yet though...you'r limiting a lot then the tools allowed to be used: As far as I know, only full use of it(exporters, importers available) in Blender, Maya 5 or 4(not sure if fully), Max and Gmax. Yet though those are quite a important ones, and the main free tool(almost the only) with bones and weights animation to be exported, Blender, is supported, so wouldn't be a bad idea, as already is fast, thought for games, and well documented for coders format. It also has more features than x. X was not thought for games, but more for applications, imho is anyway a great format to translate info to an engine, though a later on conversion could be optimal.
yet though, what I have heard, many people are using it fine directly, not only in irrlicht but in many other game engines (Truevision 3d, DarBasic pro, Game Studio, Urgh Engine, Quest3d, etc) Must not be *that* bad.
Oh, about that of obsolete formats... I agree, md2 has no support for shared UVs, and (like md3) has a low poly limit count, uses to produce trembling vertices for not having floats... and other weird stuff...yet .Even though, many, practically all engines out there support it. Why? 'cause there's quite a bunch of free for non comercial md2 files in the net.... because many tools can output md2 natively or with free plugins...because is easy to load for a coder.... and because is very low in hardware use for RTS games, and others that need a bunch of tiny models in screen at once.
yes, i am a 3d artist too and i have also worked for game companies in the past. i still think .x is a very crappy format and not very suited for transfering models between applications or for direct usage with a game engine. the exporters i used so far (mainly maya) are !""§§&%/ and there is no support for them at all. there still isn't a working one for maya 6. i don't use 3dsmax but from what i have heard it isn't that bad with the panda exporter?
i think with .x it's like with the internet explorer. microsoft didn't really care for it in the last years. it's very half-hearted...
hm... after thinking some more about it i think a custom irrlicht format would be best. and the support for all the other formats like .x and collada and so on should be outside of the engine with a conversion tool.
in indeed, in this moment, in several free engines I am seing they are actually doing this...They defined a binary optimized native engine format, and created loaders for every model format that they wished, so that actually the loader converts to the engine format.
I'm told also the Maya plugin is by far not as good as Panda exporter.
Several times, so it beguins to look to me like a fact..btw, also did read happens so with md5 format in Maya.... but doom3 comunity is fast...
Panda for max can even output multitexturing, several u v channels, lightmaps.yeps is really good and it allows to otuch almost any settings....
I have to admit that there are other two plugins for othe rsoftwares that allow also a lot of customizing, like Jox exporter for Blender, and Character fx native export. being able even to set model scale, playrate speed, left handedness, bones only export, etc, are things that sooner or later come handy, depending on the case.
yet though, I have known other tools that are terrible exporting x. When u have no control, and a problem arise, usually there's no way to export it safely... Bones formats are way more complex to deal with than plain static...
