Quake 2 is TOTALLY GPLed code and format wise. So that means there are no license fees or anything weird required to use Quake 2 maps in a GPL project. (Technically if Niko or someone wrote the loader themselves they could allow it to be done under the LGPL licence instead. The tools would still be GPLed though)
Quake 3 is VERY different. It's against iD's EULAs to use Q3Map, Q3Map2, and even GtkRadiant in ANYTHING other than iD supported games (ie. games that use the Q3 engine such as SoF2, CoD, RTCW etc). Unless you pay a US$10000 licensing fee to iD. Therefore if you want to distribute games made using Quake 3 tools, then you MUST pay that fee (I think... It could only apply to commercial products) If you don't believe me hunt around on the QuakeSrc.org forums. They've had discussions like this before.
It's an annoying situation. The best solution is using either Quake 1, Quake 2 or some other map format that isn't based on Q3. (HL is also under the same licensing restrictions as Quake 3 so HL support is kinda pointless...)
feature request: quake 2
-
Captain_Kill
- Posts: 124
- Joined: Sun Jun 27, 2004 11:02 am
- Contact:
2.8GHz P4 with HT - 512MB DDR - ATI Radeon 9600XT 256MB - Windows XP - VC++ 6 and VC++ 2003
Dark Reign 3 Home Page: http://darkreign3.notwhatyouthink.org/
Dark Reign 3 Forums: http://notwhatyouthink.org/darkreign3bb/
Dark Reign 3 Home Page: http://darkreign3.notwhatyouthink.org/
Dark Reign 3 Forums: http://notwhatyouthink.org/darkreign3bb/
-
NitroMan
yes, q2 maps would be a great addition to Irrlicht because they are easy to do, can have good quality (with the latest compilers like arghrad) not far from q3, and there is no legality issues...
Of course, Irrlicht have the zlib license but if some of its parts have other licenses (like q3 maps) I think that all the Irrlicht license is broken.
You can't make commenrcial games with Irrlicht (even if this lib was licensed with zlib as you thought) because there is code loading a proprietary technology inside the Irrlicht library.
I'm not a lawyer, but I read a lot about this subject.
ID can take you to court if you make a commercial game with Irrlicht (even if you didn't use any q3 maps or q3 tools like radient or q3map2) because Irrlicht contained proprietary content (q3 bsp) without buying a legal lisence from ID. Even if you didn't use a q3 map, the q3bsp loader is in the dll so it's illegal to use for any profit.
Be aware!
(making non-profit games with Irrlicht is still legal because ID allow users to use freely their bsp technology and tools for non-commercial activities as they said on their license.)
Of course, Irrlicht have the zlib license but if some of its parts have other licenses (like q3 maps) I think that all the Irrlicht license is broken.
You can't make commenrcial games with Irrlicht (even if this lib was licensed with zlib as you thought) because there is code loading a proprietary technology inside the Irrlicht library.
I'm not a lawyer, but I read a lot about this subject.
ID can take you to court if you make a commercial game with Irrlicht (even if you didn't use any q3 maps or q3 tools like radient or q3map2) because Irrlicht contained proprietary content (q3 bsp) without buying a legal lisence from ID. Even if you didn't use a q3 map, the q3bsp loader is in the dll so it's illegal to use for any profit.
Be aware!
(making non-profit games with Irrlicht is still legal because ID allow users to use freely their bsp technology and tools for non-commercial activities as they said on their license.)
I'm pretty sure you are wrong, because READING bsp files does not require a license from iD, using their mapping tools and level compilers on the other hand does. There is an article somewhere where Carmack himself makes it clear that it is so IIRC. Besides if you don't use bsps anyways, as i probably will as soon as i get further into my project you can just remove the code from irrlicht if you are not sure. (I'll probably remove it anyways, as I prefer to keep the code in my projects as small as possible, thats why I already removed all DirectX support from my library as it is way too much work to code everything twice, besides I hate microsoftNitroMan wrote:yes, q2 maps would be a great addition to Irrlicht because they are easy to do, can have good quality (with the latest compilers like arghrad) not far from q3, and there is no legality issues...
Of course, Irrlicht have the zlib license but if some of its parts have other licenses (like q3 maps) I think that all the Irrlicht license is broken.
You can't make commenrcial games with Irrlicht (even if this lib was licensed with zlib as you thought) because there is code loading a proprietary technology inside the Irrlicht library.
I'm not a lawyer, but I read a lot about this subject.
ID can take you to court if you make a commercial game with Irrlicht (even if you didn't use any q3 maps or q3 tools like radient or q3map2) because Irrlicht contained proprietary content (q3 bsp) without buying a legal lisence from ID. Even if you didn't use a q3 map, the q3bsp loader is in the dll so it's illegal to use for any profit.
Be aware!
(making non-profit games with Irrlicht is still legal because ID allow users to use freely their bsp technology and tools for non-commercial activities as they said on their license.)
)EDIT: From a tutorial on using Q2 maps which i found at flipcode:
Using id Software file formats in a publicly distributed application always seemed a little questionable to me in terms of legality. In preparation of this document I contacted id Software to resolve the issue; John Carmack was kind enough to send along this response:
"We do not legally protect the file formats, but you can't use any of the released tools, or tools derived from them (except the GPL'd Quake 1 tools) to generate content for a commercial venture. If you are writing everything yourself, no problem."
Raw data for raw nerves
My main PC: Athlon XP 2800+, 512MB RAM, ATI Radeon 9700 Pro 128MB, Win2k SP4
My secondary PC: Pentium III 500 Mhz, 256MB RAM, TNT2 64, Gentoo Linux
My main PC: Athlon XP 2800+, 512MB RAM, ATI Radeon 9700 Pro 128MB, Win2k SP4
My secondary PC: Pentium III 500 Mhz, 256MB RAM, TNT2 64, Gentoo Linux
There are no legal issues with using BSP inside Irrlicht. You are free to use Quake 2's level program because Q2 was released under the GPL license. That means you can sell any work you do as long as the code is released. So, even if they could possibly see a way of applying a license to the BSP format ( which they can't ) they have already stated that you can use it as long as the source is released. Which it is. The license doesn't even apply to the BSP format or the MD2 format, they cannot force you to stop using it, only to stop using their tools ( of which the Quake 2 editor is also GPL'd I believe ). There is no possible way that ID could or would try to take you to court for using BSP so you can use it freely without worry. You can sell whatever you want.
Show me the ID license for the BSP and MD2 formats and I might believe you. They show nothing on their site, give nothing with their games so they couldn't apply any license to it anyway as they haven't declared it anywhere.(making non-profit games with Irrlicht is still legal because ID allow users to use freely their bsp technology and tools for non-commercial activities as they said on their license.)
-
NitroMan
http://www.qeradiant.com/?data=legalLegal information
QERadiant, Q3Radiant and GtkRadiant are Id software products:
The editors are free for non commercial use
GtkRadiant is open sourced under a proprietary License from Id software.
Commercial use requires a License from Id Software, which can be obtained independently from any engine License. See Id Software Technology Licensing page for more information.
that's for editors...
the same thing is applied to complers like q3map2 that are based on proprietary ID source.
there was something also about q3 related technology (including bsp because this format is opened only for free games because it's still under ID license) somewhere but I don't remember the link.
maybe look quake3 readme.
The tools are their property, I don't see how they are getting away with saying you cannot sell this editor since Q2 was released under the GPL but they must have a seperate license for it.
Notice the wording: Editors. Not file format. They haven't mentioned the file format anywhere on their website, ditto for MD2. That's because it is only the tools they have put a license on. For starters, BSP isn't something ID invented, just modified for their own usage. MD2 I think they did design it themselves but they hold no license over the actual format itself.
They *might* possibly own their version of the format, I doubt they even own that and I would doubt the legality of it if they don't declare it anywhere, but they definatly don't own the binary space partioning tree format. As I said, MD2 is maybe a different matter but again I doubt the legality of it when they haven't declared it anywhere. Grab a copy of the license that comes with Q3 and check it thoroughly. If it makes no reference to file formats, specifically BSP and MD2/3 then they have no right to stop you using it.
Notice the wording: Editors. Not file format. They haven't mentioned the file format anywhere on their website, ditto for MD2. That's because it is only the tools they have put a license on. For starters, BSP isn't something ID invented, just modified for their own usage. MD2 I think they did design it themselves but they hold no license over the actual format itself.
They *might* possibly own their version of the format, I doubt they even own that and I would doubt the legality of it if they don't declare it anywhere, but they definatly don't own the binary space partioning tree format. As I said, MD2 is maybe a different matter but again I doubt the legality of it when they haven't declared it anywhere. Grab a copy of the license that comes with Q3 and check it thoroughly. If it makes no reference to file formats, specifically BSP and MD2/3 then they have no right to stop you using it.
So this is an old thread, but here's my two cents...
I also read that quote on flipcode, supposedly from Carmack himself. I believe it. If I were doing a commercial game, I'd contact Id first just to make sure, but I'm pretty sure I'd already know their answer. The BSP file formats are trivial. If you were really worried about it, write a converter which repackages things in different ways (I'd like the lumps to be defined differently anyway, ESPECIALLY in the case of Q2 BSPs).
The tools, of course, have their own various legal issues which should be fairly well defined by the licenses that cover them.
Anyway, more to the point -- I've got a working Q2 BSP loader.
The only thing MISSING at this point is setting the vertex normals. I think I've got some code that'll at least approximately work, but I've currently got no way to check (as the vertex normals make no difference for just looking at the map).
However, I've got other problems. Namely, while Q3 holds a bunch of 128 by 128 lightmaps which can be used by multiple surfaces (I guess the lighter compiles the lightmaps for several faces into the same 128x128 texture with different texture coords) -- Q2 stores a zillion very small lightmaps (16x16 maximum -- not necessarily powers of two), each of which are unique to a face. The straightforward way to implement this (the way I currently have it) is, of course, to create a meshbuffer for each face. OUCH. Watch your rendering speed go down the drain.
I guess my next step is to try to compose at load time what I think Q3 does as build time... combine multiple lightmaps into one bigger one and use the texture coords.
Code should be forthcoming.
I also read that quote on flipcode, supposedly from Carmack himself. I believe it. If I were doing a commercial game, I'd contact Id first just to make sure, but I'm pretty sure I'd already know their answer. The BSP file formats are trivial. If you were really worried about it, write a converter which repackages things in different ways (I'd like the lumps to be defined differently anyway, ESPECIALLY in the case of Q2 BSPs).
The tools, of course, have their own various legal issues which should be fairly well defined by the licenses that cover them.
Anyway, more to the point -- I've got a working Q2 BSP loader.
The only thing MISSING at this point is setting the vertex normals. I think I've got some code that'll at least approximately work, but I've currently got no way to check (as the vertex normals make no difference for just looking at the map).
However, I've got other problems. Namely, while Q3 holds a bunch of 128 by 128 lightmaps which can be used by multiple surfaces (I guess the lighter compiles the lightmaps for several faces into the same 128x128 texture with different texture coords) -- Q2 stores a zillion very small lightmaps (16x16 maximum -- not necessarily powers of two), each of which are unique to a face. The straightforward way to implement this (the way I currently have it) is, of course, to create a meshbuffer for each face. OUCH. Watch your rendering speed go down the drain.
I guess my next step is to try to compose at load time what I think Q3 does as build time... combine multiple lightmaps into one bigger one and use the texture coords.
Code should be forthcoming.
BSP, md2, md3 formats are totally free to use in comercial projects.
You can't use Quake 2 or 3 Id Tools in comercial projects. Not even derived from those (like Ydnar's bsp compiler)
gtkRadiant, qradiant editors are not able to use in comercial projects.
BUT...! You can perfectly use a very powerful open source editor for many game map formats: Quark.
You still need a bsp compiler.
But there are already some free ones. getic , the other from that sourceforge.net page, and the recent Openbsp I mentioned in faq and tools thread (yet dunno if the guy on this last based on id tools)
Getic could be not compatible with an quake 2 or 3 loader, anyways.
MANY game environment makers and engines, many comercial ones, have added md2, md3, and bsp loading. db pro and torque have bsp loading, but halflife one: surely as they knew zhlt tools is a free for comercial halflife 1 bsp compiler. And there has allways been a lack of q3 compilers for comercial projects. Also, Worldcraft or the later version Hammer, are neither usable for comercial ;but once again, you can use Quark, and setup it with the ZHLT compiler, being so , again, editor and compiler free for coemrcial.
So, nothing stopping u to make comercial projects with irrlicht, the totally free tools available, and bsp, other than that technically you may not manage to compile th q3 bsps that irrlicht loads. yet though I'd try the openbsp, (not in sticky, but in a recent thread of min in faq and tools forum section) , or the q3 open source compiler project, in the tools sticky.
There was a project for a loader of Halflife 1 BSP, but have not heard of it in a while..
All this info and links , is in sticky threads of FAQ AND TOOLS section, in the sticky tool list, and sticky faq.
Also they both are in my signature , there bellow :
You can't use Quake 2 or 3 Id Tools in comercial projects. Not even derived from those (like Ydnar's bsp compiler)
gtkRadiant, qradiant editors are not able to use in comercial projects.
BUT...! You can perfectly use a very powerful open source editor for many game map formats: Quark.
You still need a bsp compiler.
But there are already some free ones. getic , the other from that sourceforge.net page, and the recent Openbsp I mentioned in faq and tools thread (yet dunno if the guy on this last based on id tools)
Getic could be not compatible with an quake 2 or 3 loader, anyways.
MANY game environment makers and engines, many comercial ones, have added md2, md3, and bsp loading. db pro and torque have bsp loading, but halflife one: surely as they knew zhlt tools is a free for comercial halflife 1 bsp compiler. And there has allways been a lack of q3 compilers for comercial projects. Also, Worldcraft or the later version Hammer, are neither usable for comercial ;but once again, you can use Quark, and setup it with the ZHLT compiler, being so , again, editor and compiler free for coemrcial.
So, nothing stopping u to make comercial projects with irrlicht, the totally free tools available, and bsp, other than that technically you may not manage to compile th q3 bsps that irrlicht loads. yet though I'd try the openbsp, (not in sticky, but in a recent thread of min in faq and tools forum section) , or the q3 open source compiler project, in the tools sticky.
There was a project for a loader of Halflife 1 BSP, but have not heard of it in a while..
All this info and links , is in sticky threads of FAQ AND TOOLS section, in the sticky tool list, and sticky faq.
Also they both are in my signature , there bellow :
Finally making games again!
http://www.konekogames.com
http://www.konekogames.com
-
Guest
maybe its time for us to get making our own format and own editors. we can look back at the past at what the big guns have done, so we can see how to do certain things, and we know other things we want, so we can put those features in.
Maybe we should just start work on the .IMP (haha instead of .BMP)
Maybe we should just start work on the .IMP (haha instead of .BMP)