blitz has got b3d why not Irrlicht Irr3d?

afecelis · Post by **afecelis** » Wed Jan 12, 2005 4:23 am

Hi guys:

I was just reading over at Deled's site that a plugin to export lightmapped levels to Blitz's b3d format is available:

http://www.delgine.com

Now my question is: has an Irrlicht own-3d-format ever been considered? An Irr3d format would solve many people's problems regarding to level creation; it would be a matter of writing an exporter for it and writing a class that loads the lightmap and the mesh info.

It would be great to take advantage of a free level editor like Deled (I know it will be commercial soon, but the lightmapper is already working, and in the commercial version it will be even better).

IMO, Irrlicht's graphic engine part is much more elaborated than Blitz3d's; not to mention Blitz is basic, so isn't it ironic not to have an own format for such a great engine like Irrlicht?

afecelis · Post by **afecelis** » Wed Jan 12, 2005 5:12 am

hey guys,

was just playing around with latest deled version (0.91) and the lightmapper as well as the obj importer are working sweet.

http://www.danielpatton.com/afecelis/sc ... edmaps.jpg

there should be someway to take advantage of it.

Too bad the X exporter loads weird in Irrlicht, and that we can't load any lightmap info from it.

vermeer · Post by **vermeer** » Wed Jan 12, 2005 7:40 am

ehm...problem is...or was...deled when released the lightmaps feaure...I read in forum...only 16x16 pixels in lightmap size...WAY...too limited...when I have used in a game company even 2048x2048 lightmaps for a level...

I dunno if that was a previous to release author comment only and he decided later on to release bigger ones...

Anyway, seing ur shots, looks like it internally already blurs a lot the lightmaps, avoiding so "stairs-like" borders, issue when lightmap size is small...which is kindda ok, as also most old bsp had very small lightmaps and I guess blur was constantly the solution....

But I prefer accurate, hi res lightmaps...

I suppose the comercial deled does allow much bigger ones...

I 100x100 agree with u on how really good, colega, would be that Irrlicht imported X file format with lightmaps support: that is, the second UV channel, and the lightmap tga attached(asigned) to it...

What i don't know is...if Deled exports this 2 uv x file. My Ultimate Unwrap does it perfectly , and allow me a lot of flexibility in the creation of the second UV set. My workflow is really a joy doing this stuff in UU, and exporting to Gile[s] , where I generate the actual TGA, to just asign later on in UU. I mean, Gile[s] is "only" my Kickass tga lightmap generator, and man does it do a great job in that...all the UV stuff (ie: copying uvs from channel 1 to 2, or generating em from scratch) in UU.

Providing x with second UV channel, has similar effect to providing it initially as was done, bone animation... it's widely supported by practically all packages, and several of them do also allow second UV export, so... For example, Max Panda exporter supports that...and as it even support dx9 x files features, seems it even support more channels for multitexturing.

The x file export the second uv channel (I think in dx8.x compliant, which is the interesting as most exporters do export compliant to this, and most engine loaders are compatible with that) comes -at least when exported with UU dx 8.x exporter- with an area in the ascii file that is all about "FVF data" or something like that. There's the second uv channel info, and I tested in conversions that it actually works.

All the package having a free or native exporter for x enough fully developed, wouldl be able then to export a ready to go lightmapped scene for irrlicht, if hjaving this feature....

Reason why I was so interested in this x feature.

Indeed...I had some plan on irrlicht, long ago...i doubt I'll ever have the knowledge and ability to program to make a game...but could work hard on start to learn irrlicht only to use as a viewer for my realtime content...further later, even to make machinima personal projects, who knows. Lightmaps would be one of the requirements, and x supporting them, would make at least teh art path covered....

But....not all is wonders in x format... incredibly...there's a poly count limit for x...yep, like in *.3ds, too....at leasy one piece (yep, you could just use several...true...I suppose that would not kill much the frame rate...) is limited to 65,000 tris, while OBJ (which has no kind of second uv support) is unlimited....ASE then , if true that it has no poly limit, and having not only two, but several UV channels....would probably ideal, not all packages do full implementation of it, but in theory it can support cameras and camera animation, plus lights...somebody correct me if I am wrong... problem is: really FEW packages supporting it. Blender has no multiples UVs, so forget it... Max has it -indeed, it's native!- and..Ultimate Unwrap, yes again (and b3d format too, which also has multiple UVs) supports ASE, also with export of the 2 UVs that UU can make, convert, port, etc.

But not many more out there, that I know. Maybe Gmax. Dunno if Gmax has multiples UVs. But what abaout LW, Maya (which have x support) , hash Am, Cinema 4d (no animation support, but if it has 2 uv support already...dunno) , etc...

curiously, yet there are som hardly known free softwares like K3d, that could be used for conversion and even scenery building...and have...ASE support! Yet not sure if it has multiple UVs, if not, then is just as limited as Blender in that fact. But I dunno.

So, summarizing, yep, there's a limit in 65k tris in x, but u perhaps could use a pair or more of meshes instead of one for whole level, and there are way more features in an ASE (smooth groups, I think, cameras, lights, mor ethan 2 UVs, etc) , and also in b3d format, but then again..none of this are even 15% of the difussion that *.x has in packages.

So, again, sorry...my vote for x.

( Selfishly thinking, though, I could just say, hey, support fully *.ase format, hehe... )

vermeer · Post by **vermeer** » Wed Jan 12, 2005 8:09 am

Indeed, I don't think much in irrlicht in my projects future(cause my friend coders have other routes).... Anyway, I'd be able if once wished to do stuff in many ways, as I sue many 3d free tools, and several purchased packages.

But the main point I prefer for Irrlicht and Blender is..they are totally free....

Delgine is cool, though being only for win.Even so, at least it gives level editing toa huge users base (windows users)

Blender anyway will probaly end up having several uv channels, but I suspect not any time soon...

So, as b3d is much tied to Max, LW, Ultimate Unwrap and not much else..though being a totally free format, is tied to non free tools...

x at least is supported by more packages...true that not many, but some...yet though none that I know giving 2 uv support, in a free tool, at least.

vermeer · Post by **vermeer** » Wed Jan 12, 2005 8:29 am

there...here u see probs arised of using such low res lightmaps, which is the only way that can be done in the free deled version... :

http://www.genesisdevice.net/backups/screen3.JPG

http://www.genesisdevice.net/backups/screen5.JPG

I how u notice the jaggies...even it blurs em a lot, they're uglily noticeable...

vermeer · Post by **vermeer** » Wed Jan 12, 2005 8:41 am

"Anyway, we'll most likely will put low-res (16x16) lightmaps in the LITE version. The PRO version will support hi-res lightmaps at a very competitive price though"

Dunno if that was maintained.

Those looking just for lightmaps should go for Gile[s] , much better... (google puts u the link easiliy)

Those wanting also a level editor, may prefer Deled Pro.
Those with no money, and which are happy enough with 16x16 lightmaps, could go with deled Lite...but for now, no support of x 2nd uv in irrlicht, so...

Hmmmm....other issue....

"Another feature/shortcoming of the lightmapping technique you might want to take into account while modelling:

A the moment, DeleD doesn't support 'normal groups', and lightmapping doesn't support normal smoothing. This makes the lightmapping ok for indoor scenes (you don't want light to be smoothed around the corners of a wall), but could be kinda bad for landscapes or curved surfaces. The light would change abrubtly from one face to the next.

This features will surely be added to the lightmapper at some point in the future, but I am not quite sure how the smoothing groups should be controlled by the user. Maybe it would even be enough to assume normals should always be smoothed, unless an angle is < 100 degrees or something."

vermeer · Post by **vermeer** » Wed Jan 12, 2005 9:09 am

And I hope this have changed.... :

"Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2004 8:22 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
joseph, can you tell a little bit more about .X files and lightmapping in DarkBasic? As we don't export any lightmap UV coordinates to the .X files (yet) we're wondering how to get things to work in DB."

hmm....

"indeed, khris was right, it's 50 euros and with that, one of the cheapest arounds..."

hey...I think Gile[s] is 40-50$... I'd go for it definitely if looking for lightmaps only, well that's what I already did

http://www.delgine.com/forum/viewtopic. ... c&start=15

Nothing against Delgine. Just I make a cold read of features, users post, problems, limitations, and for what is strictly and only lightmapping, gilke[s] is a clear winner...

yet though...I think q3 BSPs were only 128x128 lightmaps...but the fact is a I don't remember jaggies in diagonal shadows borders... perhaps...bsp compiling added a real huge blurring, or something.

in one url....
http://www.frecle.net/giles/

vermeer · Post by **vermeer** » Wed Jan 12, 2005 9:24 am

and free options (not limited to 16x16 lightmaps! but yet, limited on outputting lightmaps for curved surfaces (I think I read there's some problem with smmothed surfaces in Delgine, though))

http://www.melog.ch/slimshady/

Lord Trancos LM tools. (there's a loader made by Jox for irrlicht)
http://dxlab.tk/

an irrlicht loader for Trancos tool :
http://irrlicht.sourceforge.net/phpBB2/ ... c&start=30

An option of using a...perhaps complex...workflow with Lord Trancos modification of Fsrad, a tool that can generate radiosity lightmap (GI lightmaps, as I call em

)

You need the several tools he made for it, the fsrad modified version he made, and the tuts and explanations available :

Trancos modified fsrad and tools :
http://www.geocities.com/dxlab/tmp/fsrad.html

very important page (in the middle of a multiple page thread,seems I linked exactly the one explainng that(page 9), in tools sticky, pasting it here... : )
http://irrlicht.sourceforge.net/phpBB2/ ... &start=120

A quote from Jox, he was succesful with it :

"Success!

- Scene (with textures) exported to OBJ+MTL from Wings3D
- MAT created with obj2mat
- MAT modified (defining light emitters)
- ANT created with obj2ant
- ANT loaded with modified FSRad
- coffee break (waiting for FSRad) Wink
- resulting OCT converted to LMTS with oct2lmts
- TGAs fixed with photoshop
- LMTS loaded into Irrlicht (with textures ok)

It's a long workflow but it works! FSRad is taking some time but the result is very nice/realistic!

That's the second free route for lightmaps in Irrlicht.

Great work Lord Trancos! Thanks a lot"

Free routes are allways longer..but seems it gives quite good quality

Much better than Slimshady and all the other free options...now is up to the user patience/pocket.

PD: seems the old Lume Tools from Lord Trancos, Delgine, and Slimshady, all have a problem with smoothing normal :wont then lightmap them smoothed, but like ugly flat shaded thing.

So, imho those aiming for lightmaps quality...to me it's clear..Gile[s] or the Trancos modification of Fsrad(and the tools he made for it).

Edit: u still need the Jox loader for LMTS format, that one Trancos created for his old Lume tools, as is used in the FSRAD workflow
LMTS irrlicht loader
http://irrlicht.sourceforge.net/phpBB2/ ... c&start=30

Electron · Post by **Electron** » Wed Jan 12, 2005 12:03 pm

Hmm. This thread originally started out as a discussion of whether Irrlicht should have its own file format.
This has been discussed on NX forums, and I think the general feeling is yes, though I don't think it's terribly high on anyone's todo list. Having an irrlicht specific format would eliminate the nasty mess created by all the different mesh types irrlicht has internally, all of which have their own specific features. Since irrlicht already has loaders for several file types, it shouldn't be hard to convert those loaders into converters to Irrlicht format.

afecelis · Post by **afecelis** » Wed Jan 12, 2005 1:50 pm

why am I not surprised by Vermeer's short intervention? lol

compadre!!! tu como siempre breve!!!

yup, vermeer, you're right about the needs of Irrlicht and the things we need the X format to do in the engine (lightmaps). The lightmaps in Deled pro will be 512x512. Let's hope the price is nice as well.

@Electron: too bad no one has the time to work on an independent Irrlicht format. Gonna check the NX forums about it.

vermeer · Post by **vermeer** » Wed Jan 12, 2005 4:04 pm

"Hmm. This thread originally started out as a discussion of whether Irrlicht should have its own file format"

Indeedy....I never keep 'on topic'. It's a family tradition. And u can't go against family traditions!

@ afecellis Es que el tema de los lightmaps me tira, coleguillla...

I have seen several engines having their own optimized format (ie: Db pro, jME ) ...and what is more, worked in company and they built all in their own. In the meantime, adding simply that feature would cut a lot of non comunication with excelent x based lightmappers out there.

Murphy · Post by **Murphy** » Thu Jan 13, 2005 10:38 pm

I have thoughts on the subject, but would rather code than type them all in, so let me just pose a simple question... what is it that you want in a native Irrlicht file format?

afecelis · Post by **afecelis** » Thu Jan 13, 2005 11:09 pm

lightmap support exported from a free or low budget level editor like deled.

In other words, freedom from Q3 bsp compiler-lightmapper.

Electron · Post by **Electron** » Fri Jan 14, 2005 1:06 am

I want a single format that can hold all mesh features supported by irrlicht. Currently we have several different types of meshes all with different features. It plays hell with engine internals. A single format would allow greater untity. We would need converters from several common formats to irr format. Ideally the .x converter would support loading extra uv channels from .x. The irr format would obviously need to support lightmaps. Here's the features i think the irr format would need to support
1) static meshes with textures
2) skeletalanimation
3) lightmaps

I'm sure there are other features that would be nice. I suppose morph animation support should be maintained for legacy and compatibility reasons. Support for storing specific animators, especially texture animators, might be nice to have.

brcolow_guest · Post by **brcolow_guest** » Fri Jan 14, 2005 4:34 am

As Electron said, it has been discussed to death over at the NX++ IRC/Forums. Basically the freedom that having multiple formats allows the end-user to have is really great. NX++ is going to be converting to a new internal mesh structure soon, but it will not have it's own model format. The first thing, if you wanted to create one would be to outline the general features for it to have. If it is a map format, then it would have lightmaps, and wouldnt have animation (usually). If it was a character model then it would have skeletal animation and not lightmaps, etc. So you need to decide upon that. Then, remember, that you need to create exporters for Milkshape 3D/3DS Max/Maya (to name a few). Then create the loader in Irrlicht or NX++. A lot of work, but it is possible in small steps

Hope that explained some stuff.