Elander & "Trolling" Reply

Eternl Knight · Post by **Eternl Knight** » Sat Dec 10, 2005 10:26 pm

First & foremost - I did not "diss" the Blender project leader behind his back. Someone asked who I had problems with (suggesting it was Joeri) and I corrected the mistaken assumption. I will not post the "proof" you are after as it was via email and I expect that Ton regards the exact contents of email as private. I have an archive of it if necessary, but you're not important enough for me to ignore an assumption of confidentiality. If you really NEED to know, ask Ton. If HE wishes to debate it, then I'll do it over at the Blender forums. Not here.

Secondly, even with a link to an archive of ALL my posts on the Blender forums - you have yet to show a sinigle post of mine supposedly trying to start a flamewar over there. So yet again you are lost for proof about my "trolling" behaviour. Funny that.

Thirdly, if you cannot find attacks on newbies on the forum - you are not looking hard enough. I never claimed the newbies were innocent (that was your addition). But innocent or not, being told to get lost or "search the f#$%ing forums", etc is not conducive to a "community" atmosphere... funnily enough, what my post said. As I was talking about the community as a whole and particular members - there was no need to "name names" (as that would start a flamewar - funny how that keeps popping up).

So all in all - you're still left with the burden of proving my "trollish" behaviours. I already have someone stating that their responses can be "superior"-like (superior being a synonym for "elite" in the Websters Thesaurus) & it would be immoral to start quoting Ton's email simply because YOU demand to see it. You cannot find a post of mine starting a flamewar over at the Blender forums (even with a list of all my posts to date). And we have members admitting to being not so nice to newbies (I'm sure Midnight would freely admit to it too were he around more often lately).

Your turn

--EK

Maize · Post by **Maize** » Sun Dec 11, 2005 2:12 am

I think telling someone to search on the forum is better than reposting the answer to it. It takes a lot less time. The only way you shouldnt do that (some people do this) is tell them to search if there isnt already the solution.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Sun Dec 11, 2005 2:44 am

Well I can agree with that a little, but it depends on the question. if it is a COMMONLY asked question that is more than a few lines reply then sure "do a search" (as most normal people would).

If it is something that may have cropped up, but you know the answer anyway and it is NOT a massive reply then just post it, chances are you will prevent another ten posts just like it from your one addition reply. Besides the search function is a bit sucky on these forums.

I think the best thing to do come the new year is to DISABLE guest accounts, allow only registered users to post and have a "newbs" forum where all the "stupid" questions are asked until they have been registered for a certain length of time. then only commited and observent posters would be able to start posting. It would clear the forums up and make this a more useful resource for help on irrlicht.

(and yes I am aware than I am posting as a guest - as I mostly do - but I am registered!)

Conquistador · Post by **Conquistador** » Sun Dec 11, 2005 3:13 am

I think the best thing to do come the new year is to DISABLE guest accounts, allow only registered users to post and have a "newbs" forum where all the "stupid" questions are asked until they have been registered for a certain length of time. then only commited and observent posters would be able to start posting. It would clear the forums up and make this a more useful resource for help on irrlicht.

I don't see that as working, as I'm sure plenty of people are out there that have been using the engine long enough that they know what they're doing and not on the forums, and won't be able to contribute or ask for advanced help for a set length of time because they'd be considered a newb.

bitplane · Post by **bitplane** » Sun Dec 11, 2005 3:59 am

Maize wrote:I think telling someone to search on the forum is better than reposting the answer to it. It takes a lot less time. The only way you shouldnt do that (some people do this) is tell them to search if there isnt already the solution.

Believe it or not, posting no answer at all takes even less time and it doesn't pollute the search results with tons of posts saying "use the search". If everyone did that the search function would be no use, so karma-- and moral_highground=NULL. If a common question really annoys you, you should focus that motivation and add it to the FAQ in the wiki and link to it there. the wiki is everyones responsibility so no excuses.

on topic: every time you squirt out a bad post, god kills a kitten. think about that mkay

vermeer · Post by **vermeer** » Sun Dec 11, 2005 9:51 am

I don't agree either about "do a search" , which usually is also coming with some average or bad moods, is a polite way to go.

If I know I have answered that (only in art stuff) way lots of times, I don't, as I know they will at the end find the search button and find it after some minutes (true that here the search is nto a lot advanced, i made a test to find bout Panda exporter settings I posted and only found my own old posts as I remembered more or less the date! )

But there are some searches I know will be hard. So I do post a reduced explanation(even more, often an update one.Some complaint for me "repeating", demonstrating they hadn't read the first not the second one...I learn new tricks, and add it to my explanations). I see also correct that for a software found in the first 5 matches in google, I just explain what it does and tell em to grab it from google.

If am not in the mood, I just don't tell nothing. Or just give an slight clues, as I consider a thread where someone asks, a place where there will be posted contributions to a problem, and each does not have to know the whole thing. Indeed, allways the reader will consider parts from each post. Some people don't understand this in other forums, and expect you to solve their whole lives with a post. This is not so. The reader must work a bit. I allways solved all my stuff in my own when learning 3d. I don't expect that to anothers, but at least, a bit of work on their side. I have been a teacher, and know it must go like that or real learning does not happen.

With x format, I am usually more available, as I voted strongly for it...

ps: those freaking kitten die for a lot of reasons!

elander · Post by **elander** » Mon Dec 12, 2005 1:04 am

Eternl Knight wrote:First & foremost - I did not "diss" the Blender project leader behind his back. Someone asked who I had problems with (suggesting it was Joeri) and I corrected the mistaken assumption. I will not post the "proof" you are after as it was via email and I expect that Ton regards the exact contents of email as private. I have an archive of it if necessary, but you're not important enough for me to ignore an assumption of confidentiality. If you really NEED to know, ask Ton. If HE wishes to debate it, then I'll do it over at the Blender forums. Not here.

Acusing someone, saying you have proofs without presenting them is dissing. You must know that civil people don't do that or you have a real atitude problem.

Claiming that you don't want to reveal this email because you want to respect Tons privacy when you are dissing him publicly is a joke and it's on you. Now you can stop making a fool of yourself or continue alone. I think nobody cares about what you say anymore.

elander · Post by **elander** » Mon Dec 12, 2005 1:22 am

In all open source projects i have been if people can't convince the most active contributers of the usefulness of their ideas they allways have the oportunity to do it themselves or wait until someone else does it. Everyone has their lives and people must understand this.

The problem is that some 5 year old newbes expect to be treated the same way they are treated in a forum for a commercial product where they think people owns them anything and moderators are a lot more tolerant. So when some newbe acts like a complete jerk and starts demanding stupid things like he owns the everyone the natural thing to happen is that he gets flamed for being a stupid and arrogant newbe. The rule here is if people would consider you a jerk in real life for acting like that it's the same thing in a public forum.

The Blender project even has several threads for registering user sugestions and if people log on the forum they can register an entry in the sugestions page:

http://www.blender.org/cms/Feature_Requests.480.0.html

http://www.blender3d.com/cms/Feature_Re ... 500.0.html

This would be a cool thing for irrlicht too.

Eternl Knight · Post by **Eternl Knight** » Mon Dec 12, 2005 1:51 am

Acusing someone, saying you have proofs without presenting them is dissing. You must know that civil people don't do that or you have a real atitude problem.

If you bothered READING the thread in which this came up - you will note that my reference was to being "elitist". Which has been supported by other people's experiences (as has been posted already). Hence the "proof" you are after is in the fact that I am not the only one to have seen this. Offering the particular proof that caused ME to feel this way is not needed when there are others testifying to the same behaviour.

I also note that I said such behaviour was OK, as anyone can fork an Open Source project & Ton controlled the project in question. I seem to recall you calling me a "bitch" though... Hmmm, who's the troll there?

For the record - my post

I was the guy that posted about their "elitist" atitude, and I stick by it. While they may "now" be implmenting features people have requested/suggested - when they are suggested unless you are ( a ) one of the developers or ( b ) the idea is an extension of their existing features - you will be trounced on.

Right now their focus is on stuff that can be used for movie creation (due to their "Orange" project) and as such, stuff that was originally tossed out as "bad ideas" or "not worth the effort" are suddenly taking priority.

Implementing features that Ton does not like (regardless of how useful or highly requested they are) will not make it into the main trunk. For example, Ton has stated that CAD/CAM like utilities will not be allowed. So one cannot make a box EXACTLY 10 units wide. This is easy to implement (and has been in several branches), but will not be integrated as it is against Ton's "artistiic philosophy". Which is fine, he controls the featureset and all, but it IS elitist.

Sure it's free and it IS better than a smack upside the head. But that does not necessarily make it GOOD or immune to criticism. There are other free & open-source applications out there much better at modelling (Wings3D) and rendering (Pixie). The problem I see at the moment is the fact that there is a missing "animation" area. And until very recently - Blender didn't give a poop about that.

--EK

Last but not least - you have yet to point to ONE flamewar instigating post of mine over on the Blender forums... As there is no-one else making claims about my "trollish tendancies" over there - it would appear that YOU are the one making baseless claims. Fancy that.

On a more constructive note - a thread for suggestions might be nice, but one has to think about the nature of this project. Niko does this for himself and is the primary contributor. If he likes something someone else has done (and the code is under a compatible license like IrrSpintz) - then he merges it in. But for all intents and purposes - a separate Irrlicht distribution would be needed for a team of developers to implement feature requests. Not to say that Niko WON'T but he is one man & as such logic dictates that most feature requests will not be touched due to lack of time.

--EK

elander · Post by **elander** » Mon Dec 12, 2005 3:28 pm

Just to clear one more of your lies, there are no posts in this forum of people acusing Ton of being elitist and rude to them. Some people have said they had problems with some forum menbers and they didn't even mentioned them has being developers. So please stop lieing and making trouble just for your own pleasure.

You claimed you had an email and used it to attack Ton. Then refused to show it because it isn't nice to show private mail. But it is nice to use it as a proof to attack other people. You are a stupid little troll, period.

If you persist with this im going to post something in Blender forum warning them that you are posting serious personal attacks against Ton using a personal email to try to harm him. Then they will come here and make a nice troll barbecue.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Mon Dec 12, 2005 4:15 pm

Elander 2 things.

1.How old are you?

2.Have you got nothing better to spend your energy on that this trivial poop?

bitplane · Post by **bitplane** » Mon Dec 12, 2005 4:16 pm

goddamnit think of the kittens!!

Eternl Knight · Post by **Eternl Knight** » Mon Dec 12, 2005 7:51 pm

Calling someone "elitist" is a "serious personal attack"?!? Oh please! And I suppose calling people bitches & trolls is standard fare? Get a grip buddy. A serious personal attack is accusing someone of adultery, embezzlement, or screwing sheep. I already provided an example of this "elitist" behaviour (CAD/CAM). I provided it in the initial thread on Blender sucking. Note, I didn't state Blender sucked either.

As for "making trouble" - I ask you: Where is the flamewar producing post of mine over at Blender? That is what you accused me of, that is why I started this thread, and you have yet to provide any proof, even though given a link to ALL my posts on the forum. You have since thrown around alot of noise, but you first accusation still stands unproven.

As for your last paragraph - sounds to me the person trying to make a "flamewar" is yourself. Tell you what, how about you actually tell TON about it, give him my [url=mailto://eternl_knight@yahoo.com]email[/url], and I'll respond to any issues he has "personally"? Or are you really trolling for a forum war? If so, I think perhaps you should talk to the mods as something tells me that is probably a "banning offence".

I have provided proof for my feelings of elitism (CAD/CAM), I mentioned there were other reasons but I do not need to bring them to bear as you have yet to prove the first ones false. You have not yet shown my "trollish" ways froom the Blender forum, and now you want to try a "forum war"? I think YOU need to get a grip.

--EK

elander · Post by **elander** » Mon Dec 12, 2005 9:31 pm

Eternl Knight wrote: I have provided proof for my feelings of elitism (CAD/CAM),
--EK

No your proof is nothing but name calling as we can see in the first page of this thread. Unless you think peopl who don't acept your advise are elitists. But you didn't present the threads where you claim you were attacked either.

Eternl Knight wrote: Tell you what, how about you actually tell TON about it, give him my [url=mailto://eternl_knight@yahoo.com]email[/url], and I'll respond to any issues he has "personally"?

Or why don't you shut up with your personal attacks and imaginary emails and go tell it to him yourself instead in every forum you go in his back like a little troll.

It's up to you to end this crap. Im old enough to not acept dissing someone with a public name and a serious interest in opensource as little poop.

If you have any real interest in opensource and Irrlicht you wouldn't bring this here pretending you have proofs to do your poop in his back.

Eternl Knight · Post by **Eternl Knight** » Mon Dec 12, 2005 10:52 pm

*laugh* You really ARE amusing you know that?

Presented with proof, you reject it (not disprove it, mind you, just ignore it). Then you state that I am dissing Ton in "every forum you(I) go in like a troll".

You have yet to prove your initial accusation that I tried to start a flamewar in the Blender forums! As you can't even manage that (even with a list of every post I made there, a nice feature of their forums) - I'd LOVE to see you locate all those other places I supposedly "dissed" him.

Dude, you just don't know when to quit. First prove your initial premise, then move onto the new ones. I didn't "bring this here", I responded to a thread stating that Blender sucked that SOMEONE ELSE STARTED. Strangely enough - I wasn't the only person replying to that thread with something other than "Blender is the best thing since sliced bread". That thread finished some time ago -YOU brought it up again. It seems that YOU have the problem.

This thread is NOT about me dissing Ton. It is about your (still unproven) accusation that I tried to start a flamewar over at the Blender forums. I'm still waiting...

--EK

BTW: I've read the entire thread. Aside from saying Ton has "elitist" behaviour, I see no namecalling by myself... You on the other hand...