No it says DX7. We are starting to see trends TOWARDS DX8 (thanks to winxp) but DX9 is right out.
Now, I am not hear to wipe your asses for you so if you are really interested in the facts then search that forum for yourselves I have better things to do and I have read many things on there about all of the issues above.
OGL on windows V DX9 on windows v DX8/7 on windows.
I can quite understand that many people on the irrlicht forum don't give a poop about this statistics or the kind of devs in those forums, the point is IF you are one of them or plan to be then you should start by following basic common sense.
It is not my "job" to convince everyone I am correct - I AM CORRECT - that is enough for me, and to be honest I am sick of trying to help you people out with this advice... I should be glad .. it is less competition in the long run. Now if anyone answers with BS again I will assume you didn't bother taking the time any serious game developer would / should to set correct targets and system specs for your wider audience, as such I really don't care what your opinion on it is.
Irrlicht .15 / Mac OS X support
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Eternl Knight
- Posts: 313
- Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2005 5:01 am
While I agree with some of what you say "Guest", your attitude really riles me up.
If YOU want anything from anyone here, it is YOUR job to convince them(us) as to why we should do it. For example, Mac support (which is/was what this thread was about) is something you want someone else to do for you (I do not see you offering to do it here and given your "anon" status - it's not easy to locate the offer elsewhere if you have).
Could you please provide the "famous" example of the OGL to DX "required" conversion? Believe it or not, I am not mocking you but would seriously like to see the data on it.
My research into successful indie games leads me to two conclusions - firstly, the most popular games are not 3D. They are either 2D isometric or 2D platform. As such, for one to have a proper comparison between OGL & DX - one needs to discard all the 2D games from the mix to count the number of 3D-to-3D platforms that are required. This, I have found, tends to favour DX only slightly more than OGL FOR 3D. DX for sound & input is used for approximately 90% of windows games, but the OGL vs DX3D breaks down on approximately 40% OGL, 60% DX (for successful games here). The ones that support both were discarded (again to make the comparison fair).
Secondly, one of the most common underlying frameworks for "successful" indie games? It's Flash. This ties into the 2D field, but bears mentioning given the heat of the discussion.
As for the threads you sent - while there are people favouring DX in them, what I don't see is that "insurmountable proof" you seem to think there is out there. I am willing to be proven wrong - after all, it would help sales to know this kind of thing? But before I start kow-towing to anyones "rants" on the matter - I like proof. My own investigation shows a slight DX favouring, but not to the degree you imply there to be. Given the limits of time in development and the desire for cross-platform deployment - I need a slightly more compelling argument than what you have shown to date.
Sorry *shrug*
--EK
If YOU want anything from anyone here, it is YOUR job to convince them(us) as to why we should do it. For example, Mac support (which is/was what this thread was about) is something you want someone else to do for you (I do not see you offering to do it here and given your "anon" status - it's not easy to locate the offer elsewhere if you have).
Could you please provide the "famous" example of the OGL to DX "required" conversion? Believe it or not, I am not mocking you but would seriously like to see the data on it.
My research into successful indie games leads me to two conclusions - firstly, the most popular games are not 3D. They are either 2D isometric or 2D platform. As such, for one to have a proper comparison between OGL & DX - one needs to discard all the 2D games from the mix to count the number of 3D-to-3D platforms that are required. This, I have found, tends to favour DX only slightly more than OGL FOR 3D. DX for sound & input is used for approximately 90% of windows games, but the OGL vs DX3D breaks down on approximately 40% OGL, 60% DX (for successful games here). The ones that support both were discarded (again to make the comparison fair).
Secondly, one of the most common underlying frameworks for "successful" indie games? It's Flash. This ties into the 2D field, but bears mentioning given the heat of the discussion.
As for the threads you sent - while there are people favouring DX in them, what I don't see is that "insurmountable proof" you seem to think there is out there. I am willing to be proven wrong - after all, it would help sales to know this kind of thing? But before I start kow-towing to anyones "rants" on the matter - I like proof. My own investigation shows a slight DX favouring, but not to the degree you imply there to be. Given the limits of time in development and the desire for cross-platform deployment - I need a slightly more compelling argument than what you have shown to date.
Sorry *shrug*
--EK
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Guest
you idiots.. attack me when I am not trying to convince anyone that mac HAS to be put into irrlicht. I am giving "evidence" to gfx styler who unlike you two has proven on more than one occasion to be completely narrow minded over the issue.
understand I am not here whining about what should or shouldnt be in irrlicht. I have lost count of the amount of times I have thanked niko for his work and said he should concentrate on bug fixes before anything else "new".
No, the later replies were ONLY to gfx who said what I wrote was "bullshit" - what do you expect? It is most certainly not bullshit.
Also EK you have your info slighty wrong and 3D/2D doesn't come into. That is a design issue - we are talking about deployment (and why dx7/8 are better on windows than ogl for really old system with flakey ogl support *in general*).
I know exactly what kind of indie game sells best and it is NOT isometric OR platformers - it is in fact good old match-3 puzzle games (2D) tile swapping games like bejwelled. That is nothing to do with irrlicht, just the same desirable low minimum requirements are a good target to aim at.
I am not saying anymore on the subject but understand I posted what I did firstly to the guy who asked why lightfeather isn't "ideal" for shareware and secondly to gfxstylers shitty attitude towards anything he hasn't got experience with and knowledge on.
oh and just because I can relay these facts to you doesn't mean I think I am a god who can just knock up a mac port myself.. that has nothing to do with it.
.. no wonder these forums are an insult to the irrlicht name, all they offer is pats on the back to kids playing with technology with no real clear insight into what could HELP niko achieve future widespread acknowledgement of his great engine. The fact is people are in this as a business do not/should not stick with what they "think" and should research instead to get the facts. I did, I was like you - I was using DX9 a long time ago and have results to show, I used DX7 and have clear improved results. Again most of you are NOT in a business or are intended to target mass shareware markets with your games which is why you don't understand - fair enough, how many times do I have to use that disclaimer "if you are NOT in the same developer bracket as THOSE types of indie-devs then you will not appreciate the difference supporting dx7 and a mac port can make" - anyone who posts against that is simply playing around with irrlicht or making a game for "fun" so sure you have no worries.
But why you have to continually tell me IM WRONG when I deal with these things daily is beyond me, I can understand YOUR point of view but very little empathy and open-mindedness coming back. Shows me all I need to know about the majority of you.
Now. I'm not going to mention this again because it is clearly just wasting my time.. so flame away and live in your comfort zone if you must.
understand I am not here whining about what should or shouldnt be in irrlicht. I have lost count of the amount of times I have thanked niko for his work and said he should concentrate on bug fixes before anything else "new".
No, the later replies were ONLY to gfx who said what I wrote was "bullshit" - what do you expect? It is most certainly not bullshit.
Also EK you have your info slighty wrong and 3D/2D doesn't come into. That is a design issue - we are talking about deployment (and why dx7/8 are better on windows than ogl for really old system with flakey ogl support *in general*).
I know exactly what kind of indie game sells best and it is NOT isometric OR platformers - it is in fact good old match-3 puzzle games (2D) tile swapping games like bejwelled. That is nothing to do with irrlicht, just the same desirable low minimum requirements are a good target to aim at.
I am not saying anymore on the subject but understand I posted what I did firstly to the guy who asked why lightfeather isn't "ideal" for shareware and secondly to gfxstylers shitty attitude towards anything he hasn't got experience with and knowledge on.
oh and just because I can relay these facts to you doesn't mean I think I am a god who can just knock up a mac port myself.. that has nothing to do with it.
.. no wonder these forums are an insult to the irrlicht name, all they offer is pats on the back to kids playing with technology with no real clear insight into what could HELP niko achieve future widespread acknowledgement of his great engine. The fact is people are in this as a business do not/should not stick with what they "think" and should research instead to get the facts. I did, I was like you - I was using DX9 a long time ago and have results to show, I used DX7 and have clear improved results. Again most of you are NOT in a business or are intended to target mass shareware markets with your games which is why you don't understand - fair enough, how many times do I have to use that disclaimer "if you are NOT in the same developer bracket as THOSE types of indie-devs then you will not appreciate the difference supporting dx7 and a mac port can make" - anyone who posts against that is simply playing around with irrlicht or making a game for "fun" so sure you have no worries.
But why you have to continually tell me IM WRONG when I deal with these things daily is beyond me, I can understand YOUR point of view but very little empathy and open-mindedness coming back. Shows me all I need to know about the majority of you.
Now. I'm not going to mention this again because it is clearly just wasting my time.. so flame away and live in your comfort zone if you must.
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Eternl Knight
- Posts: 313
- Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2005 5:01 am
I would PM this to you - but you have neglected to create a login *shrug* I'm not hassling you about it (I'm not one of the people complaining about guest posts) - just explaining why I am replying to a thread you state you are no longer going to read (hoepfully you do otherwise this is wasted time).
First, I'd like to correct my bad use of language to explain my findings. By "platform" I was referring more to the style of "underlying" code. 2D Isometrics tend to be "tile-based" in terms of the world game state, whereas "platforms" (as I mean the word) are more oriented to collections of objects with a position in 2D space. In other words - games like "Zuma", "Insaniquarium", and "Diner Dash" are all "platform" games in the way I think. It was a mistake on MY part as I expressed myself in the way I think rather than in the standard terms used to describe game genres. There are several reasons as to why I think puzzle games are more popular - but they are based on opinion and not statistics I have gathered *shrug*
I personally understand the gist of your feelings about the forums, but not the breadth or ferocity of them. The forums COULD be more conducive towards furthering the development of Irrlicht both in terms of increased adoption (see my "be nice to newbies" schpiel elsewhere on the board) and in terms of advancing the features (though I think this needs more developers, not necessarily more ideas - Spintz, Acki, and one or two others are about all I see in terms of furthering Irrlicht rather than just using it).
I still think my point remains constant - of the most popular indie games that utilise 3D, the percentage that utilise DX to the exclusion of OpenGL is not significantly larger for developers (such as myself) considering cross-platform deployment. If you are not arguing this point - than I apologise and will leave well enough alone. If you are and wish to continue the discussion in private - feel free to PM me. I would truly appreciate being corrected in my findings, but as I said - would need more proof than offered so far. As I am sure you appreciate, the decision to base a project on a dual-base (such as DX for Windows & OpenGL for Linux/Mac) rather than a uniform framework has a big impact on development times - which translates into more money spent.
--EK
First, I'd like to correct my bad use of language to explain my findings. By "platform" I was referring more to the style of "underlying" code. 2D Isometrics tend to be "tile-based" in terms of the world game state, whereas "platforms" (as I mean the word) are more oriented to collections of objects with a position in 2D space. In other words - games like "Zuma", "Insaniquarium", and "Diner Dash" are all "platform" games in the way I think. It was a mistake on MY part as I expressed myself in the way I think rather than in the standard terms used to describe game genres. There are several reasons as to why I think puzzle games are more popular - but they are based on opinion and not statistics I have gathered *shrug*
I personally understand the gist of your feelings about the forums, but not the breadth or ferocity of them. The forums COULD be more conducive towards furthering the development of Irrlicht both in terms of increased adoption (see my "be nice to newbies" schpiel elsewhere on the board) and in terms of advancing the features (though I think this needs more developers, not necessarily more ideas - Spintz, Acki, and one or two others are about all I see in terms of furthering Irrlicht rather than just using it).
I still think my point remains constant - of the most popular indie games that utilise 3D, the percentage that utilise DX to the exclusion of OpenGL is not significantly larger for developers (such as myself) considering cross-platform deployment. If you are not arguing this point - than I apologise and will leave well enough alone. If you are and wish to continue the discussion in private - feel free to PM me. I would truly appreciate being corrected in my findings, but as I said - would need more proof than offered so far. As I am sure you appreciate, the decision to base a project on a dual-base (such as DX for Windows & OpenGL for Linux/Mac) rather than a uniform framework has a big impact on development times - which translates into more money spent.
--EK
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TreyOne Games
- Posts: 18
- Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2005 12:44 am
So Basically this is a wasted thread !!!!! Get 2 the real Point of what all us Nubie's really want 2 Know!!!!!!!!! what is the best way (meaning safe way...for a noob) for a noob 2 start... dx 7,8,9 ogl or what!!!!!!!....since all of you appear 2 have so so knowledge ..lol 
WHAT IS THE MOST CROSS COMPATIBLE!!! AND I MEAN ALL SYSTEM'S !!!!!! 
i dont mean...blah blah blah....if this forum/engine is ever gonna have a real commun behind it, with the real progger's out there giving help and giving input then all need 2 really get 2 the real point and talk shop and not blah blah...even the guest...lol
and on that note ... get 2 work and make it all compatible...all real programers can make it work across the board... and if u think im lyin...then tell me this.... why is most main stream games made for xbox,psp and all the rest come out the same time....do u really think they wait for there people 2 rewrite the whole game again...nooooo a good progger who knows what they are doing programs it in a easy way 2 cross over....and thats the real problem with it all....people are 2 dependent on what they are using instead of using there programming skills to make it cross compatible... am i wrong?
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Guest
The "argument" is not about cross platform discussion, but the widest available (without updates) and lowest acceptable (while retaining features) driver level requirements on each platform in question (ie MAC+OGL, PC+DX7 - 8 at a push. OGL support on low end/older PCs is severly lacking in most cases with shoddy/unreliable drivers - DX7(8) on the other hand works and works well).
If you are making anything that will need a gf5+ to run and a 3ghz cpu then just use DX9 as you won't have the problems of getting people to update their drivers like the mass casual/indie game developers do.
If you are making anything that will need a gf5+ to run and a 3ghz cpu then just use DX9 as you won't have the problems of getting people to update their drivers like the mass casual/indie game developers do.
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Guest
also because irrlicht is abstracted you shouldnt need to worry about having to re-code (much) of your project for x-platform. You can switch at will between OGL and DX on windows so in a future mac version you can obviously use the same IRRLICHT code but just use OGL. All the other differences (endian etc) should be asbstracted by a nice irrlicht interface 
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Eternl Knight
- Posts: 313
- Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2005 5:01 am
Actually, that last statement is incorrect in the case where you want to "extend" the engine in terms of 3D materials/shaders. If you are using Irrlicht AS IS - then sure, you don't need to worry too much about it. However, if you are using Irrlicht as a basis for your engine (what I think most professional game developers would be doing, indie or otherwise) than you DO have to consider the extra development time.
THIS is my main issue - development time is money.
--EK
THIS is my main issue - development time is money.
--EK
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Eternl Knight
- Posts: 313
- Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2005 5:01 am
Depends on how you define "professional" I guess. As far as I am concerned, in this discussion "professional" means "working commercially on the project, not as a hobby".GFXstyLER wrote:professional game developers use irrlicht as base? lol, good joke
And what I meant in my previous statement is that if you seriously intend to make money AND are using Irrlicht as a base - you sure as hell are going to extend it somewhat. "Guest" (whoever he/she is) was stating that if you were using Irrlicht - you wouldn't have to worry about development time across OGL & DX as "it is already done". This is a fallacy, especially given Irrlicht's current feature base (which, while impressive - is by no means all inclusive).
So in a way, your retort supports what I was saying
--EK
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Guest
sorryThats not the real point of this thread - I should know - I started it.TreyOne Games wrote:
Anyone have an estimate on when Irrlicht is going to support the mac? I'm interested because I use Blitzmax, which is cross platform and there is an excellent user implementation of Irrlicht in it - which I would like to use when it is mac compatible. Someone said it was "on the roadmap" - where is the roadmap? I noticed it was in the list of additions for 1.5 - but it used to be listed in the features for 1.4