License issues

NecromanX · Post by **NecromanX** » Thu Feb 05, 2004 9:44 am

Hi, i ve been fooling around with the irrlicht engine for a while now. And what bothers me is the use of some file formats.
For example we easily use md2 models, 3ds meshes and even bsp maps.
I was wondering what kind of license goes with these formats!
I remmember the qfusion engine wich was a modified q2 engine that now supports al q3 features.
The problems was that people just couldnt use q3 bsp maps with it.
Some guy contacted ID about this issue and they replied that you need a license from to use the bsp format outside of the Q3 engine.
So ok thats what i know, what about the other formats?

joorce · Post by **joorce** » Thu Feb 05, 2004 3:29 pm

http://www.cipherengine.com/discuss/vie ... .php?t=327
at the bottom of page:

John Carmack:
"We do not legally protect the file formats, but you can't use any of the released tools, or tools derived from them (except the GPL'd Quake 1 tools) to generate content for a commercial venture. If you are writing everything yourself, no problem."

keless · Post by **keless** » Thu Feb 05, 2004 3:47 pm

One such free tool is GTKRadiant which originated from QERadiant which was the GPL'd tool for quake 1 modified to suit both quake 2 and finally 3.

stampsm · Post by **stampsm** » Thu Feb 05, 2004 7:46 pm

so as long as we use GTKRadiant to make maps we are free to work with out violating any rules?

keless · Post by **keless** » Thu Feb 05, 2004 8:06 pm

thats my understanding of it, though I could be wrong.

Now-- md3 models on the other hand, should definately be safe, since everyone uses 3rd party modelers.

fretnoize · Post by **fretnoize** » Thu Feb 05, 2004 9:52 pm

Unfortunately, it looks like you can't use GTKradiant to make a commercial product. I guess that changes my plans!

Legal information
QERadiant, Q3Radiant and GtkRadiant are Id software products:

The editors are free for non commercial use
GtkRadiant is open sourced under a proprietary License from Id software.
Commercial use requires a License from Id Software, which can be obtained independently from any engine License. See Id Software Technology Licensing page for more information.

taken from: http://www.qeradiant.com/?data=legal

I'm still not sure about q3map2 though (the program that turns your .map file into a .bsp) since that isn't made by Id, it might be useable, but you'd still have to make your .map some way... any ideas?

powerpop · Post by **powerpop** » Fri Feb 06, 2004 5:15 am

ahum - i wonder how one could really tell that a particular bsp was make in GtkRadiant? - since the file format is separate from the app

it is true - you cannot protect a file format - you can protect architectures and processes

also, i think its dubious law that GtkRadiant tries to limit you to not use their tool for commercial work - i dont think that can be protected because you are not using the runtime or any libraries in your final product - it would be like GIMP saying you cant use any images edited in it in a product, that would not hold up

IMHO

keless · Post by **keless** » Fri Feb 06, 2004 5:39 am

but consider 'shareware' compilers whos liscenses only allow you to compile binaries for 'educational' use.

powerpop · Post by **powerpop** » Fri Feb 06, 2004 6:26 am

ah but compilers are different - they place code in there that is unique - so they can protect that IP and limit your use - as far as i know that is not possible to do with images or i think binary/text static files - especially since the binary/text file cannot be patented

its an interesting question - have to ask my two IP lawyer friends what court cases say about this one!

keless · Post by **keless** » Fri Feb 06, 2004 6:40 am

you can 'watermark' images (in non-visible manners as well).

the idea of a bsp tree, and the serealization thereof is certainly not ID's property. However, the particular form of serialization, and Q3 specific entities will certainly mark the use of their IP.

The question is, will they really care?

joorce · Post by **joorce** » Fri Feb 06, 2004 9:53 am

Why you can't protect a file format?

And about the conditions for GTKRadiant, they set the conditions of their own product. They made it and and they can choose.

saigumi · Post by **saigumi** » Fri Feb 06, 2004 3:20 pm

I tried reading through the MD3 and BSP license material and am having major problems getting consistency about what license applies to what.

From what I can tell, the tools are GPL, so to make a commercial version of a tool based on the tool, you would need the license. Though, they say that the format for the file and the loader (that many demos are based on) is licensed as well.

I found that the Torque engine loads MD3 (and maybe BSP) but I couldn't find a single thing in the license that is presented to end user developers that notes a transition of a MD3/BSP license to the end user developers.

Most confusing...

Then, from the flip side of the arguement. File structure is fair game for usage, as noted in several Microsoft vs. ***Office lawsuits that says that the other Office programs are importing MS's format.

As long as it's not encrypted, it doesn't run foul of the DMCA.

Jedive · Post by **Jedive** » Tue Feb 10, 2004 8:20 pm

ahum - i wonder how one could really tell that a particular bsp was make in GtkRadiant? - since the file format is separate from the app

ALL the current map editors capable of creating Quake3 BSP maps use the id Software official tools to generate the BSP. Even GPL ones like Quark, so it's a bit difficult to say that you have used "another" BSP compiler

vermeer · Post by **vermeer** » Tue Feb 10, 2004 8:48 pm

you still could use Halflife BSPs, and the free zhlt tools for compile that bsp...ain't it?

keless · Post by **keless** » Tue Feb 10, 2004 8:49 pm

Not quite.

While all of them use the ID-derived bsp compiler by default, it is possible to replace them with hand-made compilers. GTKRadiant lists at least one, which they suggest you use instead of the original.