MDL support

Kamazy · Post by **Kamazy** » Fri Dec 01, 2006 4:13 pm

I'm wondering why irrlicht doesn't have MDL support yet.
It's the best format for FPS.
Mostly cuz of hit boxes and bone controlers. But it allso supports sub models groups and attachments. making it very usefull for any kind of game type.
So does irrlicht have plans on supporting .mdl files?

vermeer · Post by **vermeer** » Fri Dec 01, 2006 7:25 pm

mdl doesnt support full weights, just 1/0 influence. I know the tweaks, accomodation , and how to do that. Done it even for bringing the food plate.

So know well how much mor elimited it is than a format like md5, x or b3d.

if you speak about the old mdl of half life 1, or quake 1.

Smd of hl2...could do...but imho, you have lots of possibilities which the ones done, and specially the incoming b3d..

Kamazy · Post by **Kamazy** » Fri Dec 01, 2006 10:42 pm

Well the features i want are:
Hitboxes. So knowing where you him some1 is made easier
Bone manipulation. So you can have dinamic animatinos. EX: make AI head look at player.

Animatoin blend. so you can have 2 animations playing at once. EX: player legs and top are actualy 2 seperate animations made into 1. (like HL)

Sub models. simple way to make AI dinamic models. Let's say i shoot some1 with a shotgun in the face. When i do that change the sub model to "no head" stuff like that are usefull. (this can be done now but with way more complicated then just a sub model)

Attachments. Simple, you have the main model. (with bones) and an attachment model (with bones) in both those models theres a bone with the same name "Joint" lets say. So attach those two bones (possitoin,rotaion) to that it reacts to the player animation.

Irrlicht is alsome but it is missing a few vital features.

[edit]

BTW: is there a way to "paint" decals on a mesh (not level) for blood effect. So, you shoot him and red gets "Painted" on the point of collision?

vermeer · Post by **vermeer** » Sat Dec 02, 2006 9:14 am

It all sounds to have sense.

I am no coder, but i have read people doing that by coding , at least many of them.

But are features more related to the engine, the code, not actually the art format.

Imho, for certain features being already contained in the format, allowing less later coding, your favourite format here could be then CAL3D. Wether it's fully implemented, its loader and all its features supported in Irrlicht, I dunno (is rare to find that in an engine...fully, I mean) , as it has already animation blending and an amount of features.

Maybe collada. I dunno. Someone used to the engine may answer.

But really, the features you listed, need mainly a bones and weights format...which already are x, b3d, collada, and cal3d. Which if I am not wrong, are one way or the other already able to be used in the engine..

About the blending, I dunno...maybe cal3d.

Luke · Post by **Luke** » Sat Dec 02, 2006 10:48 am

Kamazy:

I can do all of the features you're talking about, with some fairly small changes to irrlicht.

Like Vermeer says it is done with the engine and coding, not some magic format.

I’m using blending animations (2 separate animations made into 1), transitions between animations, bone manipulation (and animation manipulation), and bone attachments in my game, it's not that hard to get working.

Hitboxes I don’t think should be in Irrlicht, their much better in a physics engine.
The blood effect is possible (animating the blood mesh the same as the character’s vertices) but I haven’t worried about this, it's just an effect.

I agree that the bone/animation features should be in the plain Irrlicht, I was talking to bitplane about it awhile ago.

vermeer · Post by **vermeer** » Sat Dec 02, 2006 1:09 pm

I’m using blending animations (2 separate animations made into 1), transitions between animations, bone manipulation (and animation manipulation), and bone attachments in my game, it's not that hard to get working.

wow

Kamazy · Post by **Kamazy** » Sat Dec 02, 2006 2:42 pm

The reason i'm asking about this is because they are a standard feature in most/all Graphic engines.

I mean in TV3D you simply "attach to bone" or "select submodel" and that's a VERY usefull feature.

(So far irrlicht is better then TV3D, but when TV3D 6.5 comes out it would have just about the same graphics (as i'v seen) and is much some user friendly)

And about the bit boxed, they are not for world collisoin. they are more like making a ray from point to point and then returning what bit box was hit (if any).

Like i'm read many places "Irrlicht is missing its own model format".

[edit]

BTW: couldn't you share your code with the irrlicht team so they can add it in next release.

white tiger · Post by **white tiger** » Sat Dec 02, 2006 5:47 pm

I think that support for md3 could be cool. there is a very good patch (including join support) wrote by hybrid but it need irrlicht re-compilation to work. how about include this patch in the official irrlicht release? I have some models in .md3 (weapons and monsters) taken from a free game (sauerbraten) but I can't use it in irrlicht. In my hopinion it couldn't increase irrlicht dll size a lot (correct me if I wrong)

bye

hybrid · Post by **hybrid** » Sat Dec 02, 2006 7:27 pm

The original code is not by me, I just updated the patch to the last versions of Irrlicht. However, it needs some more work to integrate it with the core, but it's on my list.

drac_gd · Post by **drac_gd** » Sat Dec 02, 2006 10:25 pm

I’m using blending animations (2 separate animations made into 1), transitions between animations, bone manipulation (and animation manipulation), and bone attachments in my game, it's not that hard to get working.

Hi Luke,
What format do you keep your models in? I am mainly wondering how to export animations from 3ds in a way the can be loaded and combined at run time? I am currently using .x with pandaX exporter with some success.

vermeer · Post by **vermeer** » Sun Dec 03, 2006 9:51 am

I guess he's using b3d, hehe

Luke · Post by **Luke** » Sun Dec 03, 2006 1:06 pm

Lol, yeah I’m using b3d

couldn't you share your code with the irrlicht team so they can add it in next release.

I’ve shared my code and talked about it with bitplane, but I really don’t think it’s not going to be in the next release. Which is fine, if every hackly bit of code was added to irrlicht, it would be a complete mess. These features need to be added slowly.

And about the bit boxed, they are not for world collisoin. they are more like making a ray from point to point and then returning what bit box was hit (if any).

But if you’re using a physic engine it’s easier/faster to do this stuff in the physic engine, and you can do this in Irrlicht already if you really want to. But remember this is a graphics engine so I don’t see this as a ‘standard feature’.

But some of the other features you’re talking decently are needed in Irrlicht, but adding some format is not going to change anything, these features are added to Irrlicht and can be added to Irrlicht in a such a way that every format (using bones) can using them.

Like i'm read many places "Irrlicht is missing its own model format".

yeah but it’s a lot of work getting a new format off the ground, there are some many exporters and importers needed, and in the end what makes it any better then the others out there.

Kamazy · Post by **Kamazy** » Mon Dec 04, 2006 8:19 pm

I’ve shared my code and talked about...

Could you make a patch then.

so people are free to add it if they wish.

But remember this is a graphics engine so I don’t see this as a ‘standard feature’...

Well, if it the "graphics" job to dop that stuff.

Anyways, PLZ at least add a "Attach to bone" so that any object (Bones or no bones) Can be "Attached" to a character with bones.

yeah but it’s a lot of work getting...

Yeah a new format is not 100% needed but, having own format would allow it to get better with the engine. And it would support ALL the engines features.
But it isn't 100% needed.

Luke · Post by **Luke** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 1:04 am

Could you make a patch then.

Yeah, I’ve made a patch, but its only working with b3d right now, but I can get it working with other formats, pretty easily. And the patch probably needs to be updated now too.

Anyways, PLZ at least add a "Attach to bone" so that any object (Bones or no bones) Can be "Attached" to a character with bones.

What do you mean, that’s already in Irrlicht.

AnimatedMeshSceneNode-> getXJointNode( jointName )
AnimatedMeshSceneNode-> getB3DJointNode ( jointName )
AnimatedMeshSceneNode-> getMS3DJointNode ( jointName )

vermeer · Post by **vermeer** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 2:23 pm

Yeah a new format is not 100% needed but, having own format would allow it to get better with the engine. And it would support ALL the engines features.

yes and no.

While that sounds very cool and all...The fact is I have worked in engines having that. And now go find plugins and importers for that very special format you just did for engine A or B. While there are aready many tools supporting B3d or OBJ format.

yep, you could have somebody in irrlicht comunity working long nights for free programming script exporters, plugins, for every 3d package out there...But in the end, in other engines I've been, at least in the free ones I have been (inhouse, it doesnt matter, obviously, and Ive seen there the best connection possible) , that wont happen fully. It's usually done this way: some Maya freak does an uncomplete plugin for it, and ...no Maxers around..oops...Or all th eoposite. I am meaning that while is the ideal , what you propose, inpractice, doesnt happen and is worse than the other possibility. One cant compare Half Life, with legions of modders out there working for it, and actual companies outputting free editing tools for the modders as part of their day job milestones, and years of passionate bunches of ppl at it... with a free relatively young engine, by no means crowded.

An exception here could be Ogre, but last time I checked, not all plugins did all which I'd like...for every package.

So, imho, the most practical solution is use the already done effort in format exporters for package, and just bang loaders for that format. Not th ebest optimal thing, I know, but as an artist, I know an engine with no possibility to get art into, is no good.

In irrlicht you can do with many formats already, and people have done those features mentioned...

Anyway, one can't compare the easiness put into modding, to a raw engine... here, the features are being added as it goes, not a full made engine that once a comercial game is released, also provides editing tools...

actually, seems to me anyway is a matter of code your own game needs, too...

Anyway, as already stated...a format can't take care of those features...that is made by the engine and game code. Imho, despite possibl errors, feature wise, x and b3d are quite good to go...

Then is more a matter of artistry and of course, good coding