Which animation?

Tyn · Post by **Tyn** » Fri Oct 01, 2004 1:35 pm

Having found out that the Panda exporter doesn't like the biped from CS, I have to rethink the format I want to use but I can't actually find an exporter to anything but .X that Irrlicht can support. Any idea's?

vermeer · Post by **vermeer** » Fri Oct 01, 2004 4:01 pm

Tyn, old issue I solved for the masses, hehe

BTW, is logical...irrlicht is huge...i wanna know -quite interested- if Jirr is in an state is usable state. I mean, games can be done coding in java, and compiling with Irrlicht..i am not a coder, but a java coder friend of mine may be quite interested...is pretty reliable in java. Not hijacking the thread, doing searchs now...but in case someone knows well the in depth bits as I use to do with artwork...

-sorry, too lazy to open a new thread now

-

TO YOU PROBLEM :

Yep, it's true. I also found the prob first, and then went to page to see in their list they don't suport it. Only bones. While physique is supported, but i'd see no advantage as I prefer skin modifier.

There IS a way to solve this for free.But ONLY if you have Max 6. At least, Max 5 trial had problems, with me. You go to File (menu) , Export, choose Kaydara FILMBOX (*.FBX) format. this will export all including animations.

Ok, the magic thing is it does convert to bones. So, u now IMPORT as FBX. Banc, bones and skin weights instead of biped and physique. Wonderful. As u can totally animate with your fav tool ;caharacter studio, and at th every end when you're REALLY sure you want do more changes/additions to animation, you do this fbx thingie.

As then , it'd be Bones and weights, ready for any engine (Indeed, I solved this issue originally for other engine, long ago, which did ate kindof x format) Now, tested that works, export with panda. I opened in Ultimate Unwrap, and tha guy did in his engine...ALL PERFECT

Sounds dirty, but now changes in the way it behaves, and not real disturb in your workflow.

Only thing is...max 6. Not another.

OH! and don't install other fbx plugin, just the native one that comes with max 6, that is do not install a thing. The one which works is already there. I think even the same version downloaded and installed, wont work, so, just do nothing, go to file, export, that's all

Second way: use the free plugin for ultimate Unwrap. That means that though u freely can export as u3d files, and even open in the unwrap3d demo, u'll need the purchased 40$ thing to EXPORT as x in Ultimate unwrap. That's a highly tested way for guys from other engines, being me one of the most active propotors of this method -nope, I'm not brad's pr or something, I just like the tool XD -

ultimate Unwrap shows bone-weighted animations worng, deformed. Is a graphic glitch, don't worry, internal data is perfectly treated. Been used by maya, hash Am and Max guys as a middle tool to export, eidt, uv map etc.

Anyway, if u have max 6, I'd go fo rthe first and free way...

It's been done, so is something that works

Now I'll get back to my search about Jirr status...

My friend is a great java coder, would be amazing if he could use it..he's so familiar to java he does not want to leave it...

vermeer · Post by **vermeer** » Fri Oct 01, 2004 4:11 pm

euh, well, if you have some info about the jirr thing , I'll be glad to know, but I'll create a thread withthe quetsion.

I need to learn not to hijack threads so much...

Tyn · Post by **Tyn** » Fri Oct 01, 2004 6:48 pm

Tried that way but not neither the DX Mesh Viewer or Irrlicht can read the X file properly. The DX viewer just refuses to load it and Irrlicht seems to load ok but looks invisible. Any idea's?

Oh yeah, this may just be a suspition but does your job involve 3D art? It seems you have the knowledge. If so, what do you know about me protecting our artists work? The code is protected by a license, do you know about something simular for media?

vermeer · Post by **vermeer** » Sat Oct 02, 2004 7:41 am

so...

you did the export as fbx, reimported again, exported as x, and it does not read in mview...

hmm...

export as text ascii

export bones marked
export keyframes marked
beware with thematerial name...
be really sure you did make at least a pair of keyframes to the biped bones in different frames, or it wont work
export animationmarked

One mesh and one material-texture per character , which is also th emost optimal and usual, avodis many problems.

and check all the setting I recommend in my signature, latests pages of thread specially as i went discovering the ones page per page, with the trials.

invisible could be very liitle scaling....

"Oh yeah, this may just be a suspition but does your job involve 3D art? "

It did, a lot. 2 companies been of this type of job. I may come back for the need of money

"It seems you have the knowledge."

well, I'm an insane , dumb freak, too

" If so, what do you know about me protecting our artists work?"

little I know. And suppose vary in each country. Only way I know is give it a copyright, that is: register it in an special place. Usually u pay an small quantity and it get registered to ur name, it has copyrights.
Its specially protected if some one rips you. As You can then prove that is your with the copyrights, and usually with that , the thief/bad person runs away, drops the activity.

but unluckily, may of these bad thing shappen un noticed by the authors.

But is the only way. That in the legal part.

in the physical part, u could encrypt strongly the artwork...ie: if there's no way or really, really hard to open a mesh file, they may rob the design idea, but not much more, same with textures.
Perhaps there's some open source solution to encrypt files. i dunno.

sorry the grammar(of this foreign -to me- language), asleep yet...hope u understand the post...

Tyn · Post by **Tyn** » Wed Oct 06, 2004 8:48 am

I went through the options you put down there but it is still invisible, I am only using the one material but there are others in there that the guy was using to view the model with, are they a problem? What kind of things would effect the material name, is it like 8 char's or something?

Maybe it is the way I export to FBX? Have you ever had problems with that before?

So there are 3 animation types that can be read by Irrlicht:

.X
.ms3d
.md2

Of which 3DSM can only export to one. I don't know much about mesh formats but are there any other alternatives that anyone has managed to write a wrapper in Irrlicht for?

vermeer · Post by **vermeer** » Wed Oct 06, 2004 9:18 am

so, does it work now?

anyway, best practice is use only a material a UWV asigned one, simple standard material. And one mesh.

material names never starting with a number...

8 letters is a good habit, though in this case shouldnot affect....

keyframes must really be there.

fbx export had some settings, I just don't remember now. there's a possibility you set wrong ones there....

Maybe import fbx had also some, is just too long since I cheked...

Biped -they say in their page- is not supported, that's why this trick is needed...

vermeer · Post by **vermeer** » Wed Oct 06, 2004 9:32 am

.X (yep, it works now in blender, should in maya, and in max)
.ms3d (...but no weights...good for robots)
.md2 (trembling of vertices, no good for near cameras.Lower polycount limit)

euh.... some missing there.

and MD3 , don't forget it. r2d2 made it work. There's a loader somewhere... there's a limit of 8192 tris per character. No bones, but smooth joint bending. Vertex animation, has some cool things too. My 2nd favourite these days, after *.x

I lately like this format IF used as single piece model, not in chunks, and letting the smoothness trusting in interpolation between keyframes. Better than md2 for no trembling vertices, higer polycount, etc... No messing with md3 tags, nor qc text file, nothing. Just interpolation between meshes, all in an md3.

This can be actually exported using Max and Gmax. There's a beta for the gmax, and a good plugin for max6 here : mojo.gmaxsupport.com

Another way is load the meshes in 3ds or ase format, or lwo, in npherno md3 compiler. So, virtually anyone can output an md3.Being max and Gmax by far the easier ways. Oh, and the mojo md3 gmax plugin+gmax, is a viable comercially usable way to output character animations. It's allways so with gmax provided you don't reverse engineer Gmax. So, ok.

CAL3D A guy today posted about cal3d working mor eor less, and though he promises nothing, he could be adding it to irrlicht! There's a cal3d plugin for max , maya, and blender, if I am not wrong.

BTW, I made x exports work in several ways as x format from the trials of max5, and max6...Something weird is happening with ur settings, or something in scene. If u want, though is long to do, post a list of the settings values you checked, even if u did not touch them, so perhaps my memory still works and can spot a problem. I mean, the panda settings ur using.

But it could be also how you are setting up the character keyframes, rigging, etc...

i know it works, though I have zero experience with irrlicht. I think some ppl already got it working with panda, so is why I think there's something wrong in your settings...

vermeer · Post by **vermeer** » Wed Oct 06, 2004 9:47 am

"Of which 3DSM can only export to one"

nope, can export also as md2.

You require the oldie version of qtip -today's one is limited- which is found here :

http://www.worldzone.net/games/azrael_d ... O/MAX.html

But i would strongly recommend md3 (again, if used as single piece, I hate when it's made of parts and the engine calculates the melting in joints) over md2. unless you are doing an RTS, and the models are seeing from far away, as use to be good in this case, the trembling at a distance is practically unnoticed, and at low counts, like 600-700 tris, md2 is quite optimal.

Tyn · Post by **Tyn** » Tue Oct 12, 2004 2:18 pm

MD3 seems a viable option for me since the distances are reasonably far away. However, I've never been aware of an MD exporter for Max, I'll take a look. Was MD3 integrated into 0.7.1? I don't even remember it being in NX, can't see it on the feature list.

No bones, but smooth joint bending.

What implications does this have for me? Would it just ignore the bones and grab the vert positions or do I actually have to do something? I'm looking for a nice simple way to export that I don't have to get involved with too much as there are likely to be a lot of animated meshes.

vermeer · Post by **vermeer** » Tue Oct 12, 2004 8:05 pm

Tyn,

the thing about needing to be displaied far in the distance is only for md2.
Md3 is free of this problem.

Anyway, I only like an md3 that is treated by th eartist like an md2: single piece model. The model is not done by separated parts (head, torso, legs) This of course has the disadvantage of not combining parts to make new characters, or reuse anims of one character to another, plus some othe radvantage. I, as an artist -and in the times we are- plainly, frontally hate the calculation automatic that the engines do to make a faked bending in that area...indeed, I think the engine just assigns a 50% of weight of what it guess.

R2d2 tested my single piece md3, and said it worked well. I guess you have to find the trheads he made about that, download will be there, of an specific loader. As last resource, contact him.

md2 is the format already supported since long ago by Irrlicht. I mean, is NOT a bad format. Is just that imho is only good for one situation: far distance (think of...neverwinter nights...) models...u'll probably yet notice a bit of the wobbling. Like if they had a bubble gum alien under their skinns, making all the skin tremble randomly.Pretty undesired thing, trust me. In some engines this comes with the extra gift of a bad lighting.

So, an strategy game, or a game where there's never a near shot (FPS games) , and they're seen at a certaindistance (not talking as small as the 2d sprites of an Age of empires or Rise Of Nations! ) is ideal for md2. Also, remember, and md3 single piece (r2d2 loader supports the standard md3 format too, also, I think ) have NOT bones. They're both of the other type of animation (there are a pair or so more) : vertex animation.

this type consists in the following: meshes are stored with all ther vertices in a keyframe , and next pose is , again stored as full model, but now it all comformin next moment , pose. Of course, the inbetweening frames bewteen both keyframes are automatically caluclated by the game engine via several ways of morphing or interpolation. In md2 it was linear interpolation, more rigid, and in md3, quadratic spline interpolation, smoother.

md2 has a limit of polygons lower, but can't remember...usually, is not very clever to use em for models of more than 700-800 tris. md3 use to be fine bout 1200-1500.I 've seen several of 2000, 2300, etc....but remember, an md2, md3, is a load mor ememory, and increases more if many animations.the more the animations, the mor ecomplex and longer, the more optimal a bones format is , in hd memory use, as in performance, if the bones format needs weights calculation, it's slower in performance. Unless is done in the card, which happens in most basic cards today.

So, overall, bone-weights is a better solution (*.x, *.md5) But md3 is very nice too, imho provided is not divided in chunks, but way less functional later on in code. With bones, u can do in most engines, bone based colissions, reuse of animations, animation blending, reuse of animated parts (legs) , mixing animation parts...most of this advanced stuff I think is not yet possible in irllicht, but surely will be some day, as the base is set (*.x).

md2 keeps bein optimal for low specs machines, for rts games, or any game with a warcraft 3 like view....(not so optimal when zoom happens

" No bones, but smooth joint bending.
What implications does this have for me? Would it just ignore the bones and"

The artist animates the bones and asign weights like always in Max or whatever the package (gmax, xsi, character fx, Blender) Is just that when exporting md3 (available plugins max, gmax, and a complex path with the others, a woorkpath that i could explain on demand, for md3) once exported, it loose the bones, is just abunch of meshes, so that the engin ewill interpolate frames between those keyframe-meshes.

" grab the vert positions or do I actually have to do something? I'm looking "

nothing. I hope r2d2 loader can load the single piece md3. Is not only imho WAY nicer, is also no complex. Doing a q3 arena compliant md3 was freaking complex even to an experienced artits...qc file, tags, shaders...what i proposed was just using it as a better md2. I prefer it. I dunno if it fully works in irrlicht, but last thing I remember, is r2d2 said he tested that it did

So you'd do ur char anims, and export the stuff with the good md3 plugins I'm gonna tell u that are available for gmax (indeed, DONT use tempest, as the one I'm gonna tell u is the only usable legally for comercial projects, and said to work much better , also) , and max 6.(there's also one for max 4.2, 5.)

"for a nice simple way to export that I don't have to get involved with too "

no, don't worry, is way easier than *.x. Just way less powerful, lesss optimal in hd memory, but probaly supported by older cards. It should be better supported than md2, imho. As also, it surely can be used for md2 typical scenarios I mentioned, so looks like a good thingy. I hope ppl don't use the chunked parts way...eeek...

much as there are likely to be a lot of animated meshes.

ok, last thing, the links :

the gmax, so free discreet way, to output md3 models, I mean the md3 plugin. It's one called something_beta :

http://mojo.gmaxsupport.com/Sections/Plugins.html

also in that htm page, the md3 plugin for max

For users of other packages... u must use some plugin to export 3ds, lwo or I think ase or asc files, and PER frame pose, and import into npherno md3 compiler, where u can compile to md3 animation using single piece model. free tool.

blender can export directly to md2 with an external plugin that works well.
can also use ideas man OBJ export plugin, but npherno does not read objs... 3ds will break model where it finds shared uvs, usual in game characters...so, my guess is try and use lwo export in export menu of blender, but dunno if it works well with uvs.

http://www.aztica.com/modules/mydownloa ... php?lid=20

http://dl.fileplanet.com/dl/dl.asp?Q3em ... /NMD3C.zip

hope it clarified, but ask any thing

Tyn · Post by **Tyn** » Thu Oct 14, 2004 10:40 pm

It seems as though the MD3 loader doesn't work with 0.7.1, damn. I guess it's .X or nothing.

I went back to see what was happening and I noticed the console dumped out some stuff about it.

Code: Select all

Unknown data object in x file: Material
unknown data object in material list in x file: {
unknown data object in material list in x file: SkinWeights

Repeats a few times...

unknown data object in material list in x file: AnimationSet

Does that suggest anything I am doing wrong?

Tyn · Post by **Tyn** » Fri Oct 15, 2004 9:11 am

Cool, cheers m8, I'll take a look.

Captain_Kill · Post by **Captain_Kill** » Fri Oct 15, 2004 9:11 am

Hey Tyn, Cal3D is NEARLY there and I'd highly recommend it. Seen as you're starting from scratch then Cal3D's different coordinate system wouldn't be as much of an issue for you because you could just rotate the model in Max. If you're interested check out all the Cal3D threads around the forum or as last resort maybe email me.
And here: http://thomas.webtracker.ch/jahia/Jahia ... ce/pid/672 That's a Cal3D scene node for Irrlicht
Good luck!

JoeWright · Post by **JoeWright** » Fri Oct 15, 2004 9:40 am

See the bug list section for some fixes to the problems (e.g. Material referencing).

Joe