Flaming on Cipher Forum

mohaps · Post by **mohaps** » Thu May 12, 2005 1:12 pm

http://www.cipherengine.com/discuss/vie ... php?t=2066

FYI

afecelis · Post by **afecelis** » Thu May 12, 2005 1:28 pm

hehehe, I had already realized that a long time ago. Too bad I did spend the 100 bucks and never used the engine

Irrlicht is so easy to understand and so friendly to work with!

niko · Post by **niko** » Sat May 14, 2005 12:28 pm

This thread made me finally download the cipher demo. Quite nice thing. And their homepage design rocks.

trekker · Post by **trekker** » Sat May 14, 2005 2:29 pm

afecelis wrote:Too bad I did spend the 100 bucks and never used the engine

Yep same here

mohaps · Post by **mohaps** » Tue May 17, 2005 3:32 am

[LINK REMOVED AS IT WAS TO A PRIVATE FORUM ON CIPHER]

latest on the ciphe rforums...sometimes these people have no idea what they are talking about... for example:

may i put it this way?
IRRLICHT IS:

- player of known formats which are still under licence because these formats are part of its engines (eg Quake2); commercially useless (but .X format is pretty good, I never ever use .X format )
- too much 3d formats for one engine makes a little rush in code; it's distracting somehow
- lot of features is in early stage of development this will have serious impact on architecture of engine
- those "pretty" videos I can generate with custom build engine made in 8 hours (or less), however API is

and
IRRLICHT will become something like OGRE soon, an over-engineered software. A lot of libraries from different people. This is not bad, but in stress scenes those engines losing performance.

A lot of guys in here have big plans, with big games. But I can assure even if you will not have playable prototype of the game with almost 50% of features working, you can't say you do this, because if you can't do this now, you can't do this ever.

With Cipher I had performace results I never had with any other engine. I know there should be some new updates within Cipher, it will help a lot, but I think stronger effort of all guys in community would help too.

bt wthe quot eis from the original "irrlicht" thread

MikeR · Post by **MikeR** » Tue May 17, 2005 4:03 am

cypher forum thread wrote:You must be a licensed developer to view this thread

It's funny how flame wars can start over something that boils down to "personal choice".
They talk about how Cypher is better than Irrlicht, but in the same sentance, state how Irrlicht is better than Cypher.

I don't know anything about the Cypher engine. I'm not even worried about it, or it's features. I like Irrlicht.

afecelis · Post by **afecelis** » Tue May 17, 2005 4:16 am

Saurav, I couldn't help it!

I had to post !

afecelis · Post by **afecelis** » Tue May 17, 2005 4:22 am

copied from the cipher forum:

I purchased Cipher and I think it's a great engine. It's definitely an engine for programmers (which I'm not), so I got a bit lost. I ran into Irrlicht and found its code easy to understand and apply; I was loading up my quake 3 levels in no time; but Irrlicht stopped being a Quake 3 loader or clone long time ago, its community has worked hard and has developed its own formats and loaders. Check this screenshot:
http://www.danielpatton.com/afecelis/Giles/AA4x.jpg

It's completely modeled in 3dsmax and exported to an Irrlicht format called "My3d" by Russian programmer Zdimitor. I don't feel I've been ripped off with Cipher; I see it more as an investment for when my learning process with Irrlicht is mature enough to understand Cipher's code (perhaps I never will). I won't deny I tried to work with Cipher, set up 3dsmax, place the exporters...but everything was a bit complicated. I was never able to even load a box in the renderer, but that's me, and as I said, I'm no programmer. So in the end, Irrlicht is perhaps a little less agressive for us newbies, has a pretty curious and active community, and most important, is open to everyone who's willing to learn it and give something in return. I'm very fond of Irrlicht cause it has been my mentor in C++. Although I'm learning at my own pace, there are others who fly like a ray with it! Another important thing is Irrlicht adapts to any budget and any tools you got, form free to expensive ones. You can create in Blender, Milkshape, Wings3d, or 3dsmax, and get great results in the engine.
There are very professional projects being developed with it:
http://www.etvig.com/blaze/

I also got Torque, AMP2, Power Render, Reality Factory Pro, 3dgamestudio, and some others, and I don't see any of them as a waste of money. Everything is experience in life. Use what gives you results, work with what you guys feel comfortable.

here's a small vid of the same level.
http://www.danielpatton.com/afecelis/Gi ... _giles.zip
today Zdimitor added the possibility of importing billboard trees with properly generated lightmaps. so that's the next thing I'll learn these days. Then I'll try to learn something new... audio..physics? dunno. It's really up to you!

you guys could also share more of your stuff and take cipher to the next stage. Don't expect Rik to do everything.

cheers

afecelis
"Irrlicht Engine Moderator"
"Cipher licensee"

afecelis · Post by **afecelis** » Tue May 17, 2005 4:46 am

Originally posted by Niko:
This thread made me finally download the cipher demo. Quite nice thing. And their homepage design rocks.

that's what i call a nice attitude!

Cipher had some nasty fights about their site design with Garagegames in their early days. Good thing they're different now

toxinid · Post by **toxinid** » Fri May 20, 2005 10:19 am

Is there around something like "demo" showing IRRLICHT is what you gus saying? "A good engine" Need to see a good example.

hybrid · Post by **hybrid** » Fri May 20, 2005 11:18 am

toxinid wrote:Is there around something like "demo" showing IRRLICHT is what you gus saying? "A good engine" Need to see a good example.

Maybe you should try the demo and examples included with the downloadable distribution of Irrlicht

toxinid · Post by **toxinid** » Fri May 20, 2005 1:59 pm

hybrid wrote:
toxinid wrote:Is there around something like "demo" showing IRRLICHT is what you gus saying? "A good engine" Need to see a good example.
Maybe you should try the demo and examples included with the downloadable distribution of Irrlicht

But this is not what can satisfy me. I need to see something better, stronger, nicer...

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Fri May 20, 2005 9:48 pm

Nebula is the best example of what a Open Source Engine Lacks:

1) Tutorial of first step (how to make a hello world).
2) Good docs.
3) Functional game how shows engine working, with sourcecode that actually shows how to make it work, and learn engine way of do things.

Irrlicht lacks of 2 & 3. (dont think bad, Im not any kind of fanatic or antifanatic

)

As moderator says, each engine have Its own pros and cons.

This kind of thread (which engine is better?!) Its mainly written by kids or people how doesnt know that make a game its time consuming, its a JOB, and you need to KNOW things like coding, modelling, sound...

If you want to make a game without knowledge, try to MOD half life, neverwinter nights, or something like that.

I challenge the people who post things like:
"Cipher dont do that!" "Why this engine isnt better" "could you add support to this?" "Hey! I know I have to code, but I want a engine like Unreal for free for my mmorpg/fps/whatever!"

To show us a Tetris clone, a Pacman clone, ANY FULL GAME, that he/she/they did before.

About PS aka fragment programs:
Guys, before ask for Pixel shaders support, learn how to CODE a pixel shader!

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Sat May 21, 2005 5:23 am

Anonymous wrote:Nebula is the best example of what a Open Source Engine Lacks:

1) Tutorial of first step (how to make a hello world).
2) Good docs.
3) Functional game how shows engine working, with sourcecode that actually shows how to make it work, and learn engine way of do things.

Irrlicht lacks of 2 & 3. (dont think bad, Im not any kind of fanatic or antifanatic )

I guess to each his own, I don't think Irrlicht is lacking in the docs. The manual is clear and and easy to read and on the plus side if you need to see source code there is plenty to be found on this forum.

as for 3 the demo shows you a nearly complete game. It even toss in sound even though Irllicht does not have native sound support. If the demo is not a good example then there are other games that can be found on the forum that are also complete.

AlexL · Post by **AlexL** » Sat May 21, 2005 5:23 pm

toxinid, in regards to seeing a nicely built and feature rich tech demo; I don't believe you'll get one. The reason isn't being that Irrlicht can handle it graphicly, but it being that Irrlicht doesn't have to sell it's self with a nice tech demo as it's an open source engine and there are no fees attached. In compairison to Cipher, which is a commercial engine and has to provide a visualy pleasing tech demo in order for there to be business. These are just the thoughts in my head currently on this matter, I just woke up and it's to early for me to get in depth